Ben Musclow

If anyone is still following this thread, Piper did post some clarifying words a few years after his initial comments. https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/clarifying-words-on-wife-abuse

Dear Cheryl: Truly troubles me that you continue to struggle with your health and have to endure all of these tests and procedures – I hope you can find a holistic approach which cures this cancer. I am happy to answer any of your questions, I simply wanted to stay on track with the specific issues discussed in John 6. But I will give it a good college try (!) anyhow… CHERYL wrote: “Your question deserves to be answered. I do have to admit that I have never seen loving God or fearing God called a “work”. Can you explain why someone responding to the Father in a godly fear would be calling “working” for his salvation? Would you be able to give me a verse that deals with the conclusion because honestly, I have never seen it.” I asked this of you because you seemed so focussed on attempting to demonstrate that those who are given to Jesus are the ones who fear God; i.e. the Father offers salvation to all, and then gives people to Jesus who have already come to Jesus through their humble fear of the Lord. The main idea I see you presenting is that for anyone to come to Jesus, they simply have to fear the Lord, and then the Father sees their sincerity and gives them to Jesus in the act of regeneration, adoption, justification, etc. If I have misunderstood you, forgive me. This is why I believe it would be a work, because God’s “election” is suddenly conditional on something in the person, namely their fear of the Lord. I don’t have a specific verse that speaks like this, because I believe the Bible clearly teaches unconditional election, i.e. that God chooses His people from before the foundation of the world based on the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1), and not due to some desirable characteristic in the people. CHERYL: “I didn’t say that coming to Jesus is conditional on the character of the person. I would say that coming to Jesus is conditional on believing the Father. The second part of your statement “the Father gives to the Son based on the one who is given”. I don’t understand this. Would you be able to flesh this out so I understand what you are hearing me say? Thanks!” My apologies for my ambiguity! My statement was worded to repeat the same principle twice, namely that it seemed as though you were saying that “coming to Jesus is conditional on the character of the person”, in discussing the root condition for the Father giving people to the Son. Again, forgive my misunderstanding of your position. CHERYL: “According to this passage, what is the LORD of hosts paying attention to? (verse 16) Why is a “book of remembrance” written before God? (vs 16) What promise does the LORD of hosts make following the attention he paid to them and because He heard what was said by these people? (vs 17) What is the “possession” that is prepared by the LORD of hosts and who are spared by the LORD of hosts? (vs 17) Again, with all of the other passages you cited, you fail to discuss just why anyone fears the Lord at all. Your questions are perfectly solid in looking at Malachi 3 (esp. vv. 16-18), but do not specify how the people came to “listen” to God, “feared the Lord and esteemed His name.” Do you believe that man has the ability in him or herself to fear the Lord, without having a new heart beforehand? Do you believe that God gives the grace to fear God to everyone, and then leaves the decision to listen and respond to every person? This is why I believe we need to stick to the immediate context of John 6, especially in regards to the blunt statement Jesus made regarding the unbelief of the crowd who could see and hear Jesus perfectly well, but were not able to come to Jesus because they had not been drawn by the Father…. CHERYL: “Why does He say that there must be a distinguishing of people rather than calling all people as God-haters? (vs 17)” Everyone is a God-hater until they have true belief in Jesus – those who continue on in true faith are distinguished by their works and their spiritual life. That is the whole point – the ones who listen to God, the ones who believe in Jesus, are the ones who have been given to Jesus by the Father… 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (John 10) Notice the similar discussion of ability here as in John 6… Jesus is perfectly consistent in explaining why people do not believe in Him.

Greetings Cheryl… I think we need to back up here a bit, because my listing of verses has sent us on a bit of a tangent (a valuable one), and we need to stick with the context of John 6… You stated in your article: “The consistent message of the Scripture is that those who fear God will come to Jesus and they will continue to come to Jesus as the “coming ones”.” The problem with this statement, is that is does not discuss just how people come to fear God. Hence my efforts to point to the panoply of Scripture in the discussion of the state of humanity, while in an unregenerate state, justly under the wrath of God, following Satan and the desires of the flesh, unable to submit to the law of God, etc. There are two key verses that explain why Jesus began this whole discussion with the crowd who were listening to Him. John 6:36; “But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.” John 6:64-65; “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Jesus is clearly explaining, first to the crowd, and then to His disciples (the only ones who remained after this “hard” teaching), why some people can see Jesus, see His works, and yet not truly believe in Him – the Father must first grant it to a person before he or she can come to Jesus, or as the verse 44 says “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” The same person is being discussed throughout this passage – the one who comes to Jesus will be raised up on the last day, and the only way that same person can come to Jesus is if it is granted by the Father, which is synonymous with being drawn by the Father. Jesus’ main point is that the crowd doesn’t believe in Jesus, they simply wanted more signs and more food, and this is ultimately because they have not been given the ability to come to Jesus by the Father. Jesus later discusses Judas (second half of verse 64, see above), and again points to the reason why “some of you do not believe”. This passage is discussing man’s lack of ability to come to Jesus, and then God’s ability to save completely. You really cannot discuss anything else in this passage until you step back and discuss why Jesus is talking this way, especially in light of the fact that the crowd left!