Cheryl Schatz

The hierarchical position is that although the Holy Spirit is under Jesus, Jesus was under the authority of the Holy Spirit during his time on earth.  The question one must ask, then, is if Jesus was under the Holy Spirit here on earth but in eternity, the Holy Spirit is under him, then how does being under the Father here on earth prove the Jesus is eternally under the authority of the Father?  There are more questions than answers in that view.

Ingrid,

Thank you so much for your encouragement!  Welcome to this blog and this community and I am SO glad that you have been receiving much help from the articles and from my DVD.

I am also glad that you have been helped enough to want to share this message with other men and women.  Wonderful!!

God bless,
Cheryl

Thank you tiro!  I will allow links so that people can discuss amongst themselves off site.  So if anyone would like to post a link here to where a discussion has been started elsewhere, I am perfectly fine with that.  I am not trying to stifle conversation and interaction on this issue at all.  I just don’t want it on my blog so that I can keep within my agreement.  Thanks!

gengwall,

Very good insight and welcome to this blog!  I appreciated your comments.

Lin,

That was absolutely profound!  Thank you so much for sharing those thoughts!

I think the important thing here is the meaning of head as “source”.  This completely fits the context.

I have been thinking about the head/body thing and looking again at the context, I don’t think there is a strong case for this connection.  After all if a head/body connection is meant we should see it referenced in the following context.  There is a strong connection with “source” as the man is the source of the woman and the woman is the source of all men after that, but there doesn’t appear to be any strength for a unity of the head and body in this particular context.  With that being the case, I take back my comments about head/body.  I think that “source” is the only real connection we can make a real case for from this passage.

Did I really say that I think I was wrong on this one?  I will say it again for those who think I know it all.  I don’t.  After a consideration of the context, although knowing that a connection between God/Christ and man/woman, can be there, there isn’t such a strong connection between all men/Christ except for Christ’s is their creator thus their source.

With that said, I will try to go back to bed and get some much needed sleep 🙂

I have added this tonight to my post above as well as to the statement on http://www.mmoutreach.org/slick.htm :

**Since CARM is completely under Matt Slick’s control as he is the President of CARM, any attacks continued through CARM in the person of Diane Sellner lay at the feet of Matt Slick, her boss.  Matt Slick also informed us in the meeting that Diane Sellner purchased three web site names as cherylschatz dot whatever (with different endings). The purchase of my name was to mock and defame my name.  If Matt Slick allows the attacks to continue on whether on CARM or through my name on web sites that he has complete knowledge of through people that are employed with CARM and who are under his authority and direction, then God will now have to be the judge between us and the public will also be in the position to judge.**

Cindy, I really appreciate your words to me.  These are words from God and are the very same words that I was reading tonight.  When the wall of Jerusalem was being rebuilt, God’s enemies tried everything they could to stop the work from mocking to blackmail and threats of attack.  There was even an attempt to call Nehemiah away from the work of rebuilding the wall in order to stop him from his call from God.  My work on the very important topic of the Trinity will not be stopped.  The Trinity has been under attack from both outside and inside the church.

Just as Nehemiah gave each man an area to protect the breach in the wall and to rebuilt the wall, so We have been given one area of the breach in this theological wall to protect.  The work will not be stopped.  I will not step aside to protect my name from those who would like to do harm to one in the body of Christ.  The work must continue unhindered.  We are not unaware of the schemes of Satan.  We see the schemes and we do our work protecting the wall as we work.  God is orchestrating the work and he will repay as vengeance belongs to God alone.  Those who live in vengeance will suffer harm just as those who live by the sword will die by the sword.  God is our defender and his help is more than enough.

Don #15,

Yes the natural sense of the passage is source starting from verse 3.

As far as the definite article, it is with man but not woman.  We certainly can understand that the man is a specific man.  If Adam is referenced then woman would be understood to be definite as well even if the definite article is not there.

If we look merely at source the man Jesus came from God, the first woman came from the body of the man and the man was created from the Word (Jesus) as his source as he was the Creator.

This interpretation fits well with the rest of the passage.  What I see in addition to this is verse 11& 12 where there is a mutual dependence.  Woman was dependent on man for her existence as her source and man now depends on the woman for his existence as his source, but the ultimate source is God.  This is the meaning that I put in my DVD.  But is there more in regards to sustaining of life?  Paul could have written verse 3 to match verses 12 and said that man is out of Christ and woman is out of man and Christ is out of God.  But the first man in verse 3 is not one man but all men.  All men are created by Christ but is not Christ’s place as their source not a picture of the head?  Not only did Christ create all men but if they look to him as their head, he will supply what they need to be men.  It is a big job to take on the responsibility of a family.  If the source of supply is what is also meant in this passage then the head feeds the body.

Jesus is the human son, God in the flesh.  The body.  The woman is called the body in scripture while man is the head.  Again a one-flesh union with head referencing to body.  It is the first example that must be worked out.

I am really tired right now.  So maybe others can point out all the thoughts in this passage.

I have this week left to get my DVD set finished and after this week I will be much more like myself.  Hopefully less tired and more able to contribute 🙂

This is just a public thank you to everyone who prayed for me as I tried my best to confront a brother in love for his offenses against me.  I believe that in the end God will somehow bring some good out of what I went through because this is the kind of God we serve.  All things work out for good to those who love God and are called according to his purpose.

PS  All of the thoughts here have been good.  Keep up the good work and your thoughts and reasons have been very much appreciated!

Pinklight #5,

You started a good discussion here when you asked:

If then what Paul says implies that the wife is the body of the husband then does not what he says also imply that Christ is the body of God and males the body of Christ?

Paul uses the term “kephale” or “head” in a metaphor that must include the rest of the metphor “body” to allow it to make sense.  Let’s reason through this metaphor from 1 Cor. 11:3 and see if we can make sense of Paul’s use.

First of all we can understand a connection between head and body as one of unity.  The head is connected to the body as a one-flesh union.  In what way is the connection highlighted in 1 Corinthians 11?  Let me put out my thoughts for you to consider.  One thing that we can see is absent from the passage is a position of “authority over”.  There is nothing in 1 Cor. 11 that has God as an authority over Christ or the man as an authority over the woman.  If Paul had meant authority, then he failed to express a connection to authority so his point has fallen to the ground.  That is, if that is what he meant.  But instead of authority we see source or source of supply mentioned in the passage.

In 1 Cor. 11:8 we see that the woman is made from the source that is of the man.  Verse 9 shows that she was created because of the man and verse 11 & 12 we see that both depend on each other and the ultimate source is God.

So how does this all go back to verse 3?  God is the source of the humanity of Christ.  Jesus said that he came from God.  God was not only the source of his humanity but he lived his life trusting in the Father as his physical source for everything that he needed.  Since Jesus gave up his right to act independently as God and chose to live his life as a man here on earth, he relied on his Father to receive his name (he received this by inheritance according to Hebrews 1) and the source of his works.  Jesus said that the works proved that he came from the Father.  This showed that the source of the works was from the Father since Jesus set aside the independent use of his Deity.  So in this way God was the true source of the humanity of Jesus and the source of supply for his works.

Let’s look to the previous head/body metaphor.  The husband is the head of the wife.  Now we should be able to understand that this does not mean that every man is the head of every woman so that the woman is the body of every man no matter who he is.  No, this is not right.  We must interpret “man” and “woman” here to be husband and wife as this is the only one flesh union between man and woman.  Again the context shows that the woman came from the man.  Therefore the first wife came from the body of the first husband.  They were one flesh to start with and God brought them back together in a one-flesh union in marriage.

So we can see the the husband is the physical source of the first woman and is meant to be in a physical one-flesh union head/body relationship with his wife.  We can also see that the husband is in some sense a source of supply also for his wife.  When she is bearing and nurturing their children, he supplies her with her needs.  The man also is to sacrifice in other ways for her.  The man in this world has all the advantages that are not readily given to the woman.  The husband then can sacrifice for her by giving up of himself to open the doors for her to minister and serve the body of Christ.  When he refuses to sacrifice for her and refuses to open doors for her by fighting for her to use her gifts, it is much harder for a woman to minister in her God-given gifts.

Now let’s go back to the first example of Christ being the head of man.  If the other two examples are head/body metaphors, then this one too is a head/body metaphor.  I believe that Paul is referencing not all men but husbands and not all husbands but the ones who are part of the body of Christ.  Jesus is the head of Christian husbands.  Christian husbands are the body (as we all are part of Jesus body) and here Jesus is noted as a special head of husbands.  Why?  Here is the key.  I believe that Paul makes note that Jesus is the head of Christian husbands because Jesus is the example of the sacrificial husband and Jesus is the source of supply for all Christian husbands.  Not only did Jesus show what a true husband was to be like when he walked the earth sacrificing for his bride and opening the door for her to minister, but he has the source of supply that all Christian husbands need.  Without going to Jesus as the source a husband will fail to be the kind of husband that he should be.

The perfect husband is one who gives up himself in every way for his bride.  But if this husband is to meet his wife’s need and be the source of supply to feed her and give her everything she needs to mature in her Christianity and in the ability to use her spiritual gifts in the body of Christ, he is going to need help.  There is no such “perfect husband” found in any mere human Christian husband.  They all need Jesus in order to be what they should be.  If they submit to Jesus and allow him to give them what they need in order to sacrifice for their wives and meet their wive’s needs, then Jesus acts as their true head (the ultimate source for the husband). Jesus is also the source of the husband since he is the Creator.

Paul says several things in this chapter that hone in on a specific point without nullifying other valid points (i.e. Paul says that the man is the glory of God.  This doesn’t say that the woman is not the glory of God.  It is honing in on a specific point for a specific reason.)  So Jesus is the source for Christian husbands.  This doesn’t mean that Jesus isn’t the source also for Christian wives, but Paul is honing in on this metaphor to make a point that Jesus is the source that Christian husbands need to be a sacrifical source for their wives just as Jesus gave up his own rights in order to live a sacrificial life looking to the Father as his source.

God is the ultimate source.  From that ultimate source came Jesus the man who relied on God to meet his needs and give him everything he needed so that he could be the example and the source for all Christian husbands who then sacrifice themselves to be the sacrificial source for their wives.  When Christian husbands sacrifice for their wives and give up their rights so that their wives are lifted up as wives and women of God, then women are able to give back to the body of Christ by using their gifts for the common good.  It all benefits Christ who is both from God and is God himself.

Does any of this make sense?  I have looked at this passage from every angle possible and this is the only angle that has made sense to me in context without any contradiction.

I welcome your thoughts and your questions.  I may be slow in getting back to people’s thoughts/questions as this next 7 days is a very busy time for me.  I must have the majority of my work done this week so that the duplication of my DVDs and the processing of the artwork can be complete in time for delivery before the end of the first week of October when we leave for Pennsylvania.  The timeline will be very tight for the duplicators.  I am trusting God for grace as I finish the last piece of this very long process.

That was a great column and also very positive!  Thanks for sharing that with us, Don.

Don,
Amen!  That is a good emphasis because all of us can learn.  None of us has everything right so we are to submit to learn from each other.  Even when we fully believe that we are right, when we in love submit to one another to hear what the other has to say, even if it is to correct them, we are opening ourselves up to hearing truth and if we need to be corrected, God’s word will do what it was sent to do and it will become a seed planted that will bring good fruit.

I should add that the attacks against me have been very helpful in allowing many people to have their eyes opened.  People who would have never contacted me before are now coming alongside my ministry. They have been greatly offended by the attacks they have witnessed and they are making their concerns known to me.  The people who have contacted me include even those who call themselves atheists. When even atheists can see through the smoke screen and see the ungodly attacks, then God surely is using all of this for his own good. I praise God for even this persecution because it is being used for God’s glory and by God for the exact opposite of what it had been intended by those who oppose me.  This is just the way that God does things.  He takes what was meant for harm and turns it around to be useful to bring people to Himself!  I am simply amazed at how he does this and I give him the glory and honor for his work!

Don #4,

I agree that this is what is happening.  Egalitarians are moving forward with confidence and courage assured that the bible in context supports women as well as men while the comps are getting more and more divisive and attacking even our confession of faith in the gospel.  This is a point that needs to happen, I believe.  Many have left the hierarchy because they were upset and dismayed by the vitriol coming from that camp.  I believe that God is in this.  It is the vitriol that will be the demise of the strict hierarchical view.  It is not Christlike and those with eyes can see.

Paula,

While I do agree that there are times that we must separate for the health of the body, it isn’t because there is no hope, but because of stubbornness and prideful inability to listen (perhaps on both ends).  But underneath it all we are required to love our brothers.

There was a great deal of angry confrontation and inability to get along with the issue of slavery.  Yet as the argument for the abolition of slavery started to receive full acceptance in the church, the body began to mend itself and provide healing.  Ultimately the solution will be love.  The world can separate from each other and hate each other as they separate.  When true believers have an unconditional love for one another yet believe differently about secondary issues of faith, it is a real witness to the world.  It is not our secondary doctrines that will keep our love for each other.  It is our love for the Savior who died for each one of us, that will keep us in a bond of love.  So if we separate, we must learn how to come together again in the gospel.  This is why it is vital that we do not question each other’s Christianity because of the secondary issues of faith.  What will the world of the cults see?  If I am called a “heretic” by some in the evangelical world merely because I affirm women using their God-given gifts for the benefit of all, then how will that help my work with Jehovah’s Witnesses?  Would some feel threatened when I want to share the gospel with a JW when some in the church have called me a heretic?  It is extremely unhelpful to name call and to question the salvation of those who disagree with you on secondary issues of faith.  This hinders the work of the gospel and it may be found to quench the Holy Spirit.  We are united in the gospel.  If we are divided in other things, we need to keep our divisions to ourselves and affirm each other in all of the essentials.  When I ask my brother to affirm me on the essentials of the faith and he refuses because he has called me a heretic on this secondary issue, he now stands against Jesus’ command to love.

Paula, another area that I agree with you is in small groups.  While I really love the church, I love the small groups even more.  In a small group is where we can really get to know one another and where we can all minister to each other.  There is no one person assigned to speak while the others keep silent.  Church was not meant to be a place where we all were silent.  1 Cor. 14 shows the many ways that we can speak out with our gifts and give a word of encouragement to one another.  Surely in this time, we need each other and we can encourage each other.

Don,

When one is confident of what one believes and one’s own ability to defend that belief from the scripture, there should be no fear in listening to the other person’s point of view.  The loving thing is to listen first of all to walk alongside the person and secondly to act in love to help them see the holes in their own argument.  Attacks and name calling will never soften one up to hear another person’s point of view.  It only produces defensiveness and resentment.  If we truly care about the truth of our position we should be willing to patiently explain, defend and listen so that our ability to persuade is looked on as something valuable.

I get to be the first person to comment on my own article 🙂

My husband wants to point out (and he is not one who likes to post comments himself) that name calling is a sign of immaturity and not just a weak argument.  A mature person can act with respect towards the opposition without having to attack the man.  An immature person often uses this as his first approach.  This shuts down the opposition without even hearing their arguments.  It is a control tactic and shows their immaturity.

The Trinity DVD will be complete and ready for distribution by October.  Hopefully it will be early October and it depends on how long it takes for stamping and for the production of the covers.  It won’t be long now.

Jesus always spoke the truth because Jesus IS the truth.  Jesus said that bad fruit does not come from a good tree and good fruit does not come from a bad tree.  What we know from Jesus’ words is that there is not a mixture of fruit.  If someone lives a life marked by the deeds of the flesh, then we need to be aware that this identifies the tree.  God is the only one who judges the heart because he is the only one who can read the heart.  But God has given us fruit to test.  When we become fruit testers we are able to protect ourselves from harm.  When we identify a bad tree because there is bad fruit growing we need to stay away.

I do believe that a brother or sister in Christ can sin in an area that needs restoration and our love and gentleness to bring them to repentance.  But I also believe that there are weeds out there who say the right things regarding doctrine and a claim to faith but they do not live in repentance.  They cover over their sin and live their life in habitual lies and cover ups.  I believe this is why Paul told us not to associate with those who claim to be a brother or sister in Christ but who practice immorality.  We are not even to eat with them.  (1 Cor 5:11)  It is imperative that we identify the fruit because we are told that by their fruit we shall know them and we are to stay away from bad trees and I believe this is necessary so that we do not become lumped in with them and hurt our own Christian witness.

Ah, yes, that summarizes my good points and my bad points.  I see the best in people but this is not always a good thing.  This last year has been an eye opener, though, with seeing the worst come out in people who should have good fruit in their lives that matches their profession of Christ but who show the signs of bad fruit.  I can still compliment them but it is much harder now that my eyes are opened 🙂

And my concern too!

Just an update on our Trinity DVD.  We had hoped to get the entire teaching onto 2 DVDs but it looks like it will have to be a 3 DVD set.  The first DVD (Lorri’s) is on its last set of fixes and should be finished on Monday.  Her DVD is a definition and explanation of the Trinity from the scriptures alone.  Lorri also gives a short testimony regarding how her misunderstanding of the Trinity lead her into the Jehovah’s Witnesses and how the bible alone brought her to a saving faith in Jesus and an understanding of the historic teaching of the Trinity.

The other 2 DVDs in this set are mine.  My first DVD is on The Trinity eternity past and it looks at Jesus in the Old Testament.  My second DVD is on the authority of Jesus and his eternity future.  It deals with the scripture that comps like to use located in 1 Cor. 15 to teach an eternal subjection of Jesus and it soundly refutes that teaching.  I have a lot of audio clips in my DVDs and I refute the conclusions of Bruce Ware and Denny Burk.  I think that some will find the audio sound bytes quite amazing at what is being taught now as the historic view of the Trinity.

I have the next few weeks to finish my own DVDs in the set and get them all sent out for stamping.  I also have to finish the artwork for the cover and get that sent away for duplication.  There is a lot of work over the next couple of weeks to finish this project but so far we are still on schedule for a end of September or early October release.  The official title is The Trinity – Eternity Past to Eternity Future, explaining truth & exposing error.

It has been a long 8 months for me from the writing stage to end of production making it almost 9 months.  Feels like the birth of a baby.  I will be SO happy to have this project finished and out in the public realm.  It really is an important topic especially with all the teaching coming from the complementarian camp that Jesus has less authority than the Father.  From what I can see from the products out there, the DVD set is going to be a very unique product.  The graphics help to make it an interesting way to view this doctrinal subject.  We had our official preview last night and things look good as we head down the final road to a finished project.

Thanks to everyone who has prayed for me during this very trying 8 month period.  There have been a lot of distractions and trials that we had to go through but God has kept us in the hollow of his hand.  What a gracious and kind God we have!

Paula,

You said:

I believe your stalkers are in this category. They are turning the lost away and injuring the faith of the weak; they give Christianity a bad name. They need to be taught a lesson!

This is certainly my concern that the ones who have been stalking are giving Christianity a bad name by their unloving actions to both Christians and non-Christians alike.  If God can use Satan for this purpose (and certainly Satan is under the sovereignty of God because Satan has no power over a Christian except what God gives him) then so be it.

I have had an extremely busy day so just got to all your wonderful answers.  I will start with the “last shall be first” answers (sorry about that Paula,  but you still get the prize for being the first one up in the morning with a brain worthy of giving logical answers).

Don,
Good answers, I especially liked #4 saying that it is dangerous to derive doctrines from bad examples.  Well said.

Lin,
I liked all of your answers, especially #3 about Adam worship.  I think we could say that the doctrine should be called Federal sinner not Federal head.  The only one that Adam was the head of was his wife as they are one flesh.  And Adam did not impute sin to his wife so the idea of federal “head” is a misnomer.

Paula,
I also liked all of your answers especially #2 where you said:

She wanted Adam. Not his alleged power, position, golf clubs or anything else, just him.

Are you sure about the golf clubs??  Very funny!  Also good point about Adam’s craving power.  The battle was not that Eve wanted to rule Adam but that she wanted to not be ruled.  This battle still continues today.  When one person takes rulership over another in marriage, it isn’t a one flesh union as it is supposed to be but a sinful reality of our fallen world.

Good job everyone!  Everyone gets an A+.

Have you heard if it will be taped and available on the internet?

Paula,
I agree with you about not looking back.  But I could not imagine myself handing someone over to Satan.

Paul had a real struggle with Alexander the coppersmith.  It appears that this Alexander was an apostate since he was teaching that the resurrection had already happened.  This was an issue not of a secondary doctrine but a primary one.

2 Timothy 4:14  Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
2 Timothy 4:15  Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching.

Those who oppose sound doctrine and oppose us should be avoided.  However I don’t know of anywhere in scripture where we would hand someone over to Satan because they disagree with us on  the secondary issues of faith.  If they are mean to us and nasty, we will probably come to the point where we avoid them altogether and just pray for them.  God has done miracle before and changed people’s hearts.  If I see someone who is particularly nasty and has a mocking spirit I tend to not want to engage them in a dialog.  Those who think that mocking is a spiritual gift are deceived.

Don,
I also agree that we need to pray for people who do not agree with us on this secondary issue.  We do not do a very good job as the work of the Holy Spirit.  Our job is to rightly divide the word of God and the Holy Spirit’s job is to convict.

Lin said:

They are determined to live out and teach the consequence of sin from Genesis 3 as biblical. It is shattering to the Body and a diversion from proclaiming the Good News to everyone regardless of gender.

The teaching about “biblical” manhood and “biblical” womanhood is not found as a spiritual discipline in scripture.  We are all to live like Jesus and he is the example for both men and women.

I would also recommend a note of encouragement to Irving Bible Church.  I sent my note today.

Robin,
One the marks of a cult is the narrowing of the doctrine.  Differences of opinion is not accepted.  When denominations major on the minor points of doctrine and use these minors to divide from other believers they have crossed over the line of a healthy church.  There are several things that we are required to do as believers.  We must forgive our brother when he asks us for forgiveness and we must also love our brother.  It is very difficult to love another believer when you are dividing from them on a secondary issue of faith.

I recently asked another believer who was dividing over a secondary issue if there was anything good about me and if I was considered to be his sister in Christ.  This person had not one good thing to say about me and as far as whether I was a sister in Christ, they said they couldn’t read my heart.  If reading someone’s heart was necessary then we couldn’t know that anyone was a Christian.  Since we believe the same on all the major doctrines of faith there should be no question whether I am a sister in Christ. Yet there is blindness when it comes to a secondary doctrine that must be protected at all costs.  The heavy cost is that of separating from other believers and treating our brethren in Christ with disdain.