Jewel,
Welcome to my blog! Thanks for your comments.

Mara,
It ’tis the season for quietness. I am still away on vacation and will be back sometime in the new year. It is a rare quiet place right now 8)

gengwall,
Have a great Christmas! We are also getting away for some family time, but we chose to go TO the cold instead of away from it. What were we thinking??

Hey Frank, you were missed! I hope you are all recharged up to help deal with Mark when he comes back.

SD,

Welcome to my blog! Thanks for your comments. It is always good to encourage one another to pray. I write about this on my blog especially when a complementarian has challenged us and then leaves without answering any questions. I ask people to pray for them because I know that they have read things that have peaked their interest and that a seed has been planted. They are not the enemy. We are not to see other Christians as enemies. And because they are brothers and sisters in Christ, we can and should pray for them. And we can and should pray for each other that the pain that many have had because they have been abused and silenced and stopped from using their gifts, will be healed by our precious Lord and Savior.

I hope you feel free to stick around and read many of the articles here as they should help a lot regarding the egalitarian position.

KR Wordgazer,

Therefore, the only logical conclusion is not that God “cannot” use women, gift women, or even speak to women, but that God “will not.” He refuses to.

Excellent observation. You are right in that their view is more on the “will not” which puts the prejudice back on God Himself. Thanks for this comment!

Hey Dave,
Yes I do understand your point. Jesus is the full expression of God, while the written Word cannot be the full expression as it is Jesus alone. Of course the Word and the Spirit agree, and Jesus makes the Word come alive. I was focusing more on what the opposition says.

I also want to make sure that people don’t think that there is a special Word to each one of us that would contradict the written Word. In a dispute about a year ago where a pastor should have followed the instruction in the written Word to come to me and apologize, he said that the Holy Spirit did not prompt him to do this. My thought is that the indwelling Christ does not required to say something to us personally that is already clearly said in the Word. When a person becomes aware that he/she has offended a brother or sister in Christ, that one should initiate a reconciliation so that the relationship is mended. Those who believe that they must have a special word spoken to them in their Spirit are sorely mistaken. God can give a special prompting inside us if He wants to, but it isn’t necessary if we are already commanded to do something by His Word. So the two go together, but certainly if the Holy Spirit indwells us, He is also able to enlighten our minds about the Word of God.

Hopefully I have made myself clear that I agree with you and disagree with the opposition.

Kay,
I supposed that the first and the last may be the same, but then that would have been much plainer if Jesus had said that the first and last will be same. While all will be saved, there does appear to be different rewards and some who think they will have a greater place (greater reward) may be surprised that their ego was too inflated down here.

As far as MacArthur, he truly believes that the male is to rule the female and that pattern supercedes marriage in heaven so that all females will be under all males. That interpretation kind of tells you where his heart is here on this earth 🙁

Charis,
Thanks for all your comments. I don’t have time right now to think this one through as we are leaving soon to visit family. I am sure that Susanna will be back to comment when she is able. This is also a busy season for her as I believe she is doing a lot of baking for Christmas.

As far as Susanna’s email address, I don’t think she makes it public, but she has a contact place on her web site where she can contact you back. You can reach her through the contact page at http://www.whendogmasdie.com/ On the left hand side it says “contact us”. Clicking there will take you to her contact information.

Merry Christmas all!

To all my blog friends and faithful commentors, Merry Christmas and have a safe travels if you will be on the road. We are closing our office until the New Year but I will monitor the site as I am able between visiting with family and friends during this special season.

Dave,
What I think these men mean is that although God can have a love relationship with women, he chooses not to have a revelational relationship (opening up the deep meaning of the Scriptures) with women since he trained and used only 12 male apostles. What they fail to realize is God is capable of revealing His word to each of us in a personal way without the need for a human interpretor or mediator.

Charis,
I rescued your comments from my spam box. For some reason the software deemed them spam. Thanks for pointing me to the fact that some of your comments were missing in action otherwise it might have been some time before I checked my spam box 🙂

John MacArthur also went on record as saying that there is hierarchy of the male over female in heaven since God created the male and female this way, it must remain this way. When I hear these men speculate this way about heaven and their preeminence in heaven as ruling over women, I shudder. The Bible says that the first will be last and the last will be first. Will those who placed themselves as “first” and “foremost” here on this earth find themselves in a lesser position of honor in heaven? I really don’t know. But I wonder about it.

Waneta Dawn,

What I have seen with these comps is that they concede salvation as the one area that women are equal to men. Even this concession seems to be a problem so that some of these men need to get past their own gender pride in having a woman in anyway equal to them. I listened to an audio tape quite awhile back of Wayne Grudem preaching on manhood and womanhood (I am 99.9% sure the speaker was Grudem). He said in his message that he would look at his wife sleeping beside him and say over and over about her to himself “You are equal to me. You are equal to me” as if he was trying to convince himself that she was indeed in some way equal to him. But try to make the “equality” as anything more than salvation and woman’s “worth” to God (in her salvation and nothing more) and watch them fight. Women are not really equal. They are only “equally” saved.

I cannot even imagine looking at my sleeping husband and having to tell myself that he is equal to me. The thought that we would be anything other than equal as joint heirs with Christ and both made in the image of God is unthinkable. This mind set produces pride and an arrogant attitude and those who hold this view just cannot see it. It is as if they are blinded by the accepting of such a privileged position.

Dave,
What I have found is that men (and women) who fear the egal position are the ones who have to stay on their own home territory where they can control the opposition’s argument. Both you and I along with many others have gone onto comp blogs and boards and we have dialogged in a respectful manner while the ones who act out their fear through having to mock the opposition will not come onto our territory. Why? Because they cannot win in a balanced venue where personal attacks against a commenter are not allowed. Rather than winning an argument with the power of their position, they have to “win” on their own territory by mocking, attacking and silencing the opposing view. I don’t have any problems in naming some of the worst behavior and that is the attack mode that is common on the Bayly blog. While they want to come across as godly Christians who follow Scripture, by their actions they really are bullies and they enjoy belittling people and calling in other “attack dogs” who can really rip at a person’s soul. Once we identify this kind of behavior, we can follow the admonition to avoid those who cause strife. Those who enjoy ripping at the sheep as a sport often will have a “form” of godliness with an outward claim of knowing the Lord Jesus but with their actions, they deny the Shepherd of the sheep by attacking His sheep. The power of the gospel is peace and brotherly love and affection which is never evidenced toward an egalitarian who wanders into their blog world. If one disagrees with them on their blog, that one will find out what “lording it over others” really means. It isn’t pretty.

I think it has been good that no one has asked Cheryl for graphics…but she has been quiet for a few minutes and I am concerned…

Ha, ha, ha, ha! So funny, Dave!

I admit, I was looking for graphics….. 8)
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…but more along the line of a Christmas graphic for a possible post before I leave for Christmas with my family. Sorry to disappoint you…I wouldn’t touch that other graphic for a million Aussie dollars!

For 16 years I led a support group for former Jehovah’s Witnesses who were coming out of the mind control of the Watchtower and needed to learn how to think for themselves. I also taught them to test everything including me. I remember one young lady in particular who came to the group but had come out of another cult group experience where she had been raised in the cult and after coming out she struggled to know who she was outside the group. Her personality had been so shaped by the cult personality that she admitted that she had fear in trusting people – even me. I told her that this was a good thing. The group taught her to trust the group leaders and this kept her in error not trusting herself to question the leadership. One of the most important things that a former cultist can do is to learn how to distrust leaders. Everyone without exception must be able to be tested by the only straight edge ruler that we have – God’s word. A person who has an air of respect and who appears educated and has lots of authority can be one of the most dangerous persons if you check your brain at the door, accept everything they say without question and fail to test them against God’s word. Truth should welcome the test. Only those who have something to hide will run from the test or become angry that they are not trusted without being tested.

Such profound thoughts! You are so right, Dave. God never said, let the males hear. There is never an indication that the ones with the male “parts” (blush!) have the only listening ears while the ones with the female “parts” must learn from those who have the listening male-parts-with-ears. Honestly if God wanted true listening ears “down there” I think it would look kinda weird 😉

gengwall,
I really like the men’s insight here on this blog. It is very helpful and encouraging to me.

I did offer to give Mike a review copy of WIM, but he did not take me up on my offer. If I could give my take on why he wasn’t interested in seeing the full argument with multi-media? I think it was because he could not afford to be persuaded and my DVDs have been said to be very persuasive. Mike is a really nice guy in a very comfortable place. If he entertained a view that was logically persuasive from the Scriptures, then he would have to remove himself from his position in a church where the comp view is not just the accepted view, but the required view for pastors. Sometimes it seems better to some to remain happy and ignorant, then to risk having the blinders taken off and having their whole world turned upside down.

That is my take anyway.

Ah, yes, good point – there are no “soft” egals and “hard” egals. And egal is an egal because equal is equal. It is only the comp position that can have many levels of hardness 😉 And to think that the comp position is supposed to be the “clear” one from the Scripture? Well, apparently it wasn’t the clear ONE until CBMW came about to dot all the i’s and cross all the t’s that are not explicit in God’s word.

Kay,

Time and time again comps seem to be too busy for answering questions or helping wayward wandering brothers and sisters in the Faith. This just baffles me. Aren’t we supposed to be reaching out to those wandering from the fold.

I have to admit that I am baffled too. I am especially baffled because I took the time and effort to contact complementarians and invite them to interact with me regarding my research and my exegesis on the hard passages. Why they are unable to even show me my errors, yet they can still hold to the complementarian view so strongly absolutely amazes me. It doesn’t make sense to me.

Dave,
Thanks for a thoughtful comment once again! A female donkey, eh? Huh, I never gave that a consideration before. Donkey, yes, but a female donkey, wow, God is sure able to give us a message about His capabilities, for sure. If God can speak through a female donkey, then He certainly does not have His hands tied to whom He uses for humans.

What surprises me the most is that so many women have become convinced that they cannot hear from God directly regarding His Word. The belief that women alone need an mediator in the area of God’s Word and hearing direction from God really is shocking. I think that women have put their trust in men and their respect is an obstacle to just believing God’s Word. I do believe that God is Sovereign enough to open the eyes of the blind and bring the Light of the World shining in to their lives. When we are helpless to help another see God’s truth, we can trust in The Truth Himself.

gengwall,
Yes, indeed I do hope he changes his mind. While the comments are passionate on this blog, I think that those who comment here have actually been grateful for comps who come by to dialog. They have been treated as brothers in Christ. This is an in-house debate, not a debate between true Christians and cultists.

gengwall,
I have interacted with John on other blogs but he never stuck around very long on those sites. I thought it might be different on my own blog. Sigh!

It is still my view that if you have the truth it is worth defending. If you don’t have the truth, it is worth listening to the other side so that one may have the opportunity for giving up error and submitting to the truth of God’s word.

For some reason many comps will not defend their view or really listen to what the other side is saying. Some comps will take the opportunity to do a “hit and run” and their apologetic stand consists only of slandering the opposition calling them heretics and sinners. We had a few of these on this blog and a couple of them I have on permanent moderation because of their slanderous attacks against Christians. They no longer come here to post because they only want their foul comments to be seen publicly. Since I want this blog to be about a respectful attitude, I don’t let their unseemly comments through and since they refuse to show any kind of respect to other Christians who disagree with their comp view, they don’t care to interact. I do not believe that this kind of conduct shows any kind of “good fruit” for their side.

I was hoping that John would be one of the more respectful ones who did care to interact and defend his views. I am not saying that he isn’t respectful. However he just isn’t into answering the hard questions. He works for CBMW so I guess this shouldn’t be a surprise. They won’t engage regarding the hard questions coming from people who request them to prove their position from the Bible.

Kay,
This is the most revealing comment of CBMW’s and a proper question to ask:

Can we ask: Why, if not for CBMW, would there be “hundreds” of comp. positions?

If the comp position is so “clear” in the scripture then why would there be “hundreds” of comp positions? And if there are hundreds of comp positions are these other positions worldly misogynist positions instead of Biblical views? The answer would have to be “yes” if we are honest. I see the CBMW statement as the clearest admittance of their unbiblical worldly position and a sad fact for them that there could not be one comp position that unites comp without them. The Bible therefore cannot unite the comps because the “rules” that CBMW has made are not in the Bible.

Unfortunately it appears that John Starke will not be answering the questions we have. I have tried to engage CBMW since 2006 and silence is the only answer of preference for them. It makes me wonder why they have set themselves up as the go-to place for complementarianism (they even coined this term) when they are unwilling or unable to answer the hard questions.

I believe that if one has the truth, that truth is open for rigorous testing by God’s word.

John,

I would also like if you would comment about my response to your article regarding Abigail’s apparent going against the “leadership” of her husband and the commendation that she received from David for taking the righteous lead. How does this Scriptural example measure up to the mandate for the wife to “joyfully” submit to her imperfect husband’s lead that is “God’s design”?

John,

I also like Sue’s question on the issue of God’s “design” for women. Where in the creation account will be see a “design” that places a woman created to be a follower and created to be in submission and under the authority to a man?

John,
Welcome to my blog! I am delighted that you came to answer to our concerns.

1. Although it is already noted that a woman is not to follow her husband into “sin”, there is a whole lot of questionable things your article labeled as “imperfections” that if a woman would follow a man against her better judgment could cause a tremendous amounts of problems. Your article said:

Yet, many may see the husband’s imperfections as an opportunity to exchange roles, as if he has lost his chance to lead.

We believe that it is not the husband’s right to be the “leader” of his wife that the Bible shows, but a joint sacrificial love where neither takes authority over the other.

But when there are disagreements, it is an opportunity not for the husband to take authority over his wife, but for the two to come together in prayer to solve the problem.

In my own marriage, at a time when we had three small children and were barely making ends meet, my husband felt that he wanted to sell our home and give all of the proceeds to our church which had been struggling and move to an apartment with no hope of having another opportunity for having our own home since our parents had given us their savings to purchase this home. I said no. God had not spoken to my heart about uprooting the family to small quarters without a yard to give all that we had to the church. Although we were living a complementarian belief, I could not go along with something that was against my own heart and my better judgment. This is one time that my husband did not take authority over me as we had been taught. If my husband had taken authority over me I don’t know if our marriage would have survived. Teaching men that they have a right to take authority over their wives on decisions that they believe are right decisions but which the wife disagrees is a huge mistake. My husband right now is glad that I didn’t agree to sell our home.

2. Your presupposition needs to answer a lot of questions regarding its validity to the teaching of the Bible. The first question would be why does CBMW teach that the man has authority over the will of his wife when the Scripture never says this and never once tells him to take authority over her?

3. I read your post on men and I believe that it is very faulty. For example you said:

For Baxter, the husband is responsible for the normal teaching and instruction in godliness.

I too believed this when I was a comp and so I felt guilty leading devotions for the family when my husband had not grow up this way and he did not do well in this area. Then I was told that I needed to just quite teaching the Bible and leading my children into devotions and that would cause my husband to take up the slack and do the job. So what happened was that my husband did not continue the job that he felt was done very well by me and we no longer had family devotions. In hindsight, I see that I was misled and that our family would have been much better off with me leading the bible devotions then not taking the lead and having nothing happen. The teaching that the husband must be the spiritual leader hurt my family.

For the record, my husband is now very good at participating with me in devotions and he works with me in spiritual leadership. But the sad thing is that I could have been there much more for my children when they were living at home, if I had not been a complementarian believing that God had different “roles” for the male and female.

The other problem I have is that complementarians rarely answer the hard questions on what specific “laws” God has for women and which things a woman cannot do without being in sin. When I ask a comp which list of sins we will find a woman teaching the Bible to men as a sin and whether practicing this sin will cause a woman to go to hell, comps do not seem to have any answers.

I would be happy if you would continue to dialog here and to give us the answers to things which comps rarely if ever address.

Hey guys, thanks for the chain reaction to Kay’s comment 😉

12 Sue, I sent an email to John Starke to invite him here. Hopefully he will consider commenting regarding the reaction to his blog post.

I should also add that by saying to women “you are not alone”, I mean that we are here for them. I don’t mean that my husband is a fool like Nabal. In fact my husband is a godly man who I dearly love. We work well together because we have great love and respect for each other. I sure wish that I could get him to post here, but he feels that the ministry he has keeps him so busy that if he started here he would be distracted from the things that God has called him to.