Dr. James Willingham

Well, I wrote a response, but the computer ate it. The missionary and church and polygamy issue was 43-44 years ago. Most of the details escape me now. We did discuss the issue with the missionary who came home on a brief furlough. By the way we have a son named Craig (named by my grandmother who raised me; it was her maiden name). He is a minister, too.

I was once a member of a church that supported a missionary in New Guinea (sp?). His approach was to accept polygamists into the church with their wives due to the fact that a woman had no livelyhood or means thereto in that particular tribal group, but not for pastor. Standards for pastors really means in the husband of one wife, a one woman kind of man. To put it another way, fidelity was the virtue to be exemplified. As to adultery and murder, clearly, David was forgiven of both and wrote his pophetic type writings before and afte the fact. If God has forgiven someone, ho are we to dare contradict Him and His acceptance. All that we can expect is an example of faithfulness to one’s wife or husband which is really what is inculcated.

John Robinson, pastor of the Pilgrims who did not get to come with them to the New World, summed up the issue well with a comment to this effect: “Who knows what new light is getting ready to break forth from God’s word.” With a book of such transparent and overwhelming depth (what does one expect to find in a book inspired by OMNISCIENCE?) we should not be surprised that God has some bone-jarring changes (also some feathery, downy soft) in the works for us in many realms of life. Just consider that His angels are to gather the elect from one extremities of the Heavens to the other. Does that mean the starry heavens, that man spreads or has spread to the stars? The Republican form of government wth checks and balances might well have their source in the Scripture. And why not the end of slavery? And if a new form of government designed to cope wih man’s depravity while maximizing human freedom within responsible ways, and if the ending of slavery out of consideration and love for our fellow man, then why not the end of male dominance (now masquerading perhaps under complementarianism) in a family like egalitarianism? O yes, I once said to a fellow in intelligence work, “I figured out we tried to go to the stars in the early fifties. What happened.” Without batting an eye, he said, “Something went wrong.” Three to five years later I put the same question to one who still had contacts in the intelligence community. His answer was that it was in the early 40s and when they launched the ship they did not kno there was a gravity warp between the earth and the moon. So they did not know where the ship went. Interesting bit of entertainment or reality like a bolt out of the blue?

Some one mentioned the idea of presbtis for women ministers. Actually the feminine form for Presbuteros is used for women in I Tim.5:2 where KJV renders it aged women. Why not eldresses (it is plural) as the term elder is used in I Tim.5:1. O yes, Paul in Phils.4 mentions Euodias and Syntyche as fellow laborers in the ministry.

Dear Cheryl: I enjoyed and appreciated you comments on the generic usage in I Tim.3:1. Whe I gave my address in 1985 on the subject, “Th Genius of Orthodoxy: Eldresses,” I did not have that knowledge, though I could have, sine I have about the equivalent of a minor in Greek. It is jut that was into the history of the interpretation of I Tim 2, regarding exceptions as suggested by the Puritan Commentator, Matthew Poole. Another Puritan said much the same thing, but I do not recall his name. God bless.

I did not read all of this round 9 as my strength is limited, but the idea of God as Sovereign was the very truth that I found that could explain how Sandy Creek Church could have Eldresses in the 1700s. Being Sovereign, God can do as He pleases. And his word does not always mean what our limited methods determine that it must mean. His ords mean what He wants them to mean. Just consider the mesage of Jonah to Nineveh. The statement, for days and Nineveh shall be overthrown, was not litterally fulfilled, because its purpose was to bring the city to repentance so God could spare the city. Jonah wanted the Ninevites destroyed, but He expected God would spare it. So when we come to the idea of women in ministry, the prophetesses of the OT & NT, show us that thre were exceptions andGod certainly has the right to make exceptions. In fact, our salvation is an exception to the law, His law, and it is an exception that He worked out in our behalf.

I would add that my research suggests that the term eldress actually fits the aged women in I Tim.5:2 so consequently Paul could actually being speaking about women ministers. And the term for eldresses is actully used a number of times in the pastorals. It was this along with Matthew Poole’s commnt about exceptions to I Tim 2 that gave me the idea of how Sandy Creek Baptist Church coul have hqd eldresses in the 1700s in a period when they would not dream of disobeying the scripture. The fact that the Separate Baptists were actually Puritan Congregationalists who had become Baptists in ecclesiology and the ordinance of baptism ad who probably were among the high level puritants who took notes on sermons and discussed every point in detail. IT IS VERY LIKELY, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, THAT SOME ONE IN THE GROUP KNEW GREEK.

Dear Cheryl: I have sat all evening reading through every one of the interviews and found them for the most part very informative, based on careful exposition, and, for the most part, satisfying. I am still looking, however, for your comment on the husband of one wife. Did I miss it somewhere. My wife wanted to see that in particular, so I looked diligently, but I could have overlooked it as I read in a hurry. There is also one area which I wish to have you address to me – which you might do in an email for he sake of discussion without distraction, and that is on Roms.5:12. I would want to know your sources, approach, type of hermeneutics, etc. One of he questions during my ordination put to me by Dr. Ernest R. Campbell who was a genius wit a Ph.D. from Bob Jones was :”What do you believe about the fall of man?” I answered: “Which answer d you ant. There are six.” (I was thinking of A. H. Strong’s Systematic Theology among others whch I had outlined along with 4other books of systematic theology. Dr. C’s reply was: “Jim, don’t be a smart-alec.” He knew Iwas trying to evade the issue of the fall of man and the two Adam questions. So I eventually came to the conclusion about man’s fallen nature from Adam and his subsequent spiritual inability from such little words as “can” and “may”, one referring of crse to ability and the other to permission. If man is unable to respond, then it requires God’s choice and irresistible grace to bring him out of his spiritual disability, deadness, darkness, depravity, and dabolic nature (child of satan). I am very interested to see how your careful expositions have influence you in this most important area. Also I should point out that there are some who want these positions to be misrepresented, and what better way to get them misrepresented than by some one who has a strong ego and does believe them but has misunderstandings…which ruin perceptions and performances. Driscoll means well I think, butmostof the believers today in sovereign grace have had few and mostly poor representatives of the position as models and mentors. As a result thy don’t quite no how to go abou presenting their case. The result can be somewhat sad. Good mentors are wanting in this work…of how to model the theology that God saw fit to bless as the truth for a Great Awakening… Even two of them. And the hymn of the ages catches the essence of it, even AMAZIN GRACE…WHICH YOU KNOW. That is a hymn t Sovereign Grace bya wretched reprobate who had been converted by such grace and then became a preacher of it and a worker for the abolition of slavery, John Newton.

While I did not get to read all of this give and take between Paul and Doug, I surely enjoyed what I read. Most people are careless readers (and I include myself among them at time for there is not one that does not slip now and then), and they are even more careless about trying to learn what really takes place in Church History. I was struck by the fact that the man who investigated Sandy Creek Church in 1771 just before Stearns died, Morgan Edwards pastor of FBC Philadelphia was on of the most educated of the Baptist ministers in the colonies (if not the most educated. He had attended Bristol College in England and was recommended to the FBC of Phila. by Dr. John Gill, the first Baptist theologian of note). Three yrs after he visited Sandy Creek and had written his history of NC Baptists, Edwards wrote a work which indicates that he had changed his mind on Women in ministry. When I delivered my address on the subject, “The Genius of Orthodoxy: Eldresses,” I had forgotten that I had taken notes on his second work. Even so I was able to work out a possible scenario for Stearns’ justification of women in ministry. It is found in Matthew Poole’s Commentary on the Holy Bible, III, Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, which argues against women in ministry except she be specially called, gifted, and endowed. Years later I came across another Puritan who made essentially the same argument. The Puritans were the leading intellectuals of their day, and they were no slouches in the use of logic. What every one seems to forget about Stearns and Sandy Creek is that they were the offspring of the Puritans and Pilgrims, Calvinist to the core and more liberal than a hound’s tooth. And quite a joy to study. What is more they had the Power of God’s blessing on their efforts. We call thir origins, The First Great Awakening, and their effect, The Second Great Awakening, and they helped launch the Great Century of Missions with the help of another Puritan Baptist, Luther Rice, who said, “Predestination is in the Bible and you had better preach it.” NEITHER THE MODERATES NOR THE CONSERVATIVES SEEM TO CARE TWO HOOTS ABOUT WHAT I HAD WORKED OUT IN MY ADDRESS. BUT THE CHICKENS WILL COME HOME TO ROOST ONE OF THESE DAYS.