Jessica

Thank you for your response. Respectful discussion can be very fruitful! I have not always been a complementarian and have been humbled in the past few years as I have discovered what I believe to be the gracious design that God has for men and women.

In Ephesians 5:17-33 (I use the ESV) we see the classic example of how we SHOULD submit to one another within the Body of Christ. Often we get caught up in the semantics of things. I will not attempt any hermeneutical feats because well it probably wouldn’t be pretty! : ) We also see in that passage the pattern for the marriage relationship.

Wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church. For husbands that means identifying the wife’s deepest needs and meeting those needs with the appropriate action. Godly male leadership and submission to the Holy Spirit is what is required. I think that we often see the word submission and thing weakness. I do not…I think true power…just as Christ’s submission to the Father brought about redemption for each one of us. Submission for husbands brings the strength to love their wives as Christ has loved the Church and submission for women frees us to be all that God has called us to be within the Body of Christ. I have been blessed by the fruits of this truth.

I do know if the issue of pride that John Piper is facing necessarily has anything to do with the submission issue as far as their marriage goes. I don’t know and wouldn’t try to guess about that. It certainly may have an awful lot to do with listening and submitting to the Holy Spirit. That is the key to providing Godly leadership and on the other hand allowing wives to be joyfully submitting to that leadership. I think that sacrifice may be a more appropriate term in this case because God has given Piper such a large platform and ministry. If it was me it would feel like a huge sacrifice to step away from that for any reason. That is why I feel such respect for his thoughtful wisdom to take this leave of absence.

You are absolutely spot on with saying that our literal body submits to itself all the time. However, I would add that all of those parts have a purpose and it is crucial that our body parts/organs fulfill that purpose. That is the way God designed them. The heart needs the kidneys to filter the blood but the kidneys can’t do the same job the heart does. God’s design can be seen in the marriage relationship as well. When we think of submission we automatically think of hierarchy. I would pose the idea that submission is not always synonymous with hierarchy. All parts are necessary yet our parts maintain different roles. Equal in value yet different in purpose and the way in which the great glory of God is displayed. Personally I see gender in much the same way.

Also, there is no excuse for complementarians, egalitarians or any other member of the Body of Christ to use “philosophies” and non-essentials as a platform for abuse or the sin of hypocrisy. I can’t remember if you said this Cheryl or if it was something else I read that made mention of other complementarian leaders whose personal lives do not reflect an attitude of submission to the Holy Spirit, but I wanted to throw that in here at the end. Pride is evil…it will destroy us no matter what “ideas” we cling to. Christ crucified is the only “good news” all the rest is just gravy ; )

I need a nap…Good stuff!

Thanks,
Jessica

Hi Cheryl,
Thanks for the “welcome” to your blog. I wanted to ask/answer the question posed in comment 7) . I consider myself to be a complementarian (although I cling to the essentials of the Gospel first and foremost). Men are called to love their wives sacrificially. We are all called to submit to the Holy Spirit. The use of the word “submission” can be very devisive. I don’t think (based on my limited knowledge of course) that Piper would consider himself to be “submitting” to Noel. Rather I think He is loving her sacrificially through obedience and submission to the Holy Spirit’s guidance and the example that Christ left for us all, more specifically in this case, for husbands. I am not in the place (physically that is!) to extrapolate more but would love to continue this discussion later. Thanks for being willing to have a dialogue.

No, being a “rock solid complementarion” does not protect your marriage…submission to the Holy Spirit’s guidance does however. I am thankful for pastors like John Piper who have the wisdom (and the theological backbone as well) to step back from ministry to protect their greatest ministry; their marriage.

This is the first time I’ve read your blog. I appreciate your thoroughness and passion for seeking the truth. That being said, I do disagree with you.

For me, it isn’t so much that Eve usurped Adam’s authority, but she denied the goodness of God. The serpent taunted her with the fruit and insinuated that God was holding out on her in some way. Eve’s sin was that she believed Satan’s word rather than believing God’s and then she acted on it.

I am a firm believer that Adam shares full responsibility for “the curse.” The Scriptures are very clear that he was right there with Eve. At any point he could have stood up and said, “No Eve, this isn’t what’s best for us. God said we shouldn’t eat the fruit from this tree. He’s given us so many other trees to eat from. He must have good reason to forbid this one.” But he didn’t. He remained passive and ate with Eve. Together they sinned and denied that God is good and trustworthy. For me, I think that is the greatest sin and issue out of this passage.

Even though the Bible doesn’t explicitly say this, it’s almost as if Adam was having doubts of God’s goodness and also desired to eat from the tree. I mean, if he had no desire would he have done it in the first place?

I don’t know, as a complementarian, how this passage shows that Eve usurped Adam’s authority. Because she gave him the fruit? And I’ve never heard the argument (from the comp side) that Eve should not have talked to the serpent…which, I agree, would lead to the practical application of a woman having to defer to her husband on (practically) any conversation. I don’t think that’s correct.

The whole “speaking for God” confuses me a bit. If you’re saying that comp’s think only men can speak for/defend God I would strongly disagree (maybe some do…all views seem to have some radicalists). If only men can speak for/defend God then a woman would not be able to give her testimony, evangelize, or engage in apologetics–all of which I believe are biblical and commanded for both men and women.

While this post is under the heading of objections to women in ministry, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on headship (which was alluded to here). As well as, what do you think a woman can do in ministry and why (biblically)?

To be honest, even though we may not agree on certain issues of gender roles I appreciate honest and respectful discussion that helps me to understand more thoroughly what I believe, why, and its Scriptural base. But even as we disagree, the most important thing is “Jesus Christ and him crucified” (1 Cor. 2:2).

I enjoyed reading this article and agree with the argument about women as the first witnesses of Christ’s resurrection. I believe the Scriptures provide a broad array of evidence that women are called by God to minister in every capacity within the Church.

A few other things worth considering (which you may have covered elsewhere on the blog; I haven’t read everything here):

1. The revelation of Jesus as the Christ was given not only to Peter (Mt. 16:16-17), but to Martha also (John 11:27).

2. The women were among those who Jesus commanded to wait for the baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), in which God also included men and women (Acts 1:12-14, 2:1-4), and which was a fulfillment of a prophecy that included women (Acts 2:17-18). The Holy Spirit empowers believers to witness for God (Acts 1:8).

3. Women were cast into prison for the gospel (Acts 8:3). This indicates that they were important enough to the Church that their enemies hoped to discourage the Church by imprisoning them.

Jessica
Author, Troubling Her: A Biblical Defense of Women in Ministry (2010)