LMB

Hi, Dave. Thanks! I wouldn’t go back there either. Why cast your pearls before swine? Guys can have pearls, right? 🙂

Dave, can you elaborate on this?
“I have noticed recently that some comp pastors are very dishonest when it comes to what they know and what they are happy to let their ‘flock’ think. They hold back the truth on purpose.”

Are you saying that you know some comp pastors who know better but let their flock think something else? Wouldn’t that make them false teachers? I’m staggered!

. . .Joanna, Susanna, Lydia, Mary, Chloe, Junia, the Elect Lady. . . .

really, it’s all just utter nonsense!

“When something other than God is the desire of the heart, it begins to desire more than the portion granted. The sinful cravings of the heart are deceitful and can justify sin or can explain away divine instruction.”

Can’t hierarchical men see that they are describing themselves perfectly with these two sentences? Rather than seeking God they seek their own power and position, to be superior to and in authority over women. So the cravings of their hearts deceive them into justifying sinful domination and explaining away divine instruction.

Nicole and Mara,
Mara said, “CBMW doctrine hurts entire families.” That is so true! And these verses practically jumped off the page at me recently:

Titus 1:10-11 “For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.”

They are disrupting whole families by teaching what they should not. And don’t miss the reason: for financial gain!

Chery, something that really jumped out at me from Starke’s article is his comment about “explaining away difficult, but clear instructions.” Yet the “instructions” he means are anything but clear! What’s worse, the hiers themselves are masters at “explaining away” plenty of Biblical evidence that is indeed crystal clear. The Prov 31 woman is one, for sure, and there are plenty more strong, godly women in the Scripture who are never condemned for being strong or godly. Yet the hiers do a great job of disappearing them from the story, along with anything else that doesn’t suit their prejudice.

Kay,

My heart is really with you. I’ve not been in any hierarchical system where I didn’t receive abuse of one kind or another. (Obviously I’m only talking about human hierarchies here.) But I’m still struggling because I think the hiers. would agree that Jesus has all authority, and then go on to claim that he delegates it to certain ones chosen by him (husbands, pastors, elders, etc) and that all the rest of us just have to submit or obey. They can appeal to verses like these:

Romans 13:1-5
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Titus 3:1
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good.

And by Cheryl’s principle of two witnesses, if it’s in their twice it must be right. FWIW, those sermons of MacArthurs on the curse definitely seem to take this view.

So I’m still fighting cognitive dissonance. My first thought is that these are secular government authorities, not believers taking authority over each other.

Can anybody help me out on this one?

Dave #30, that’s a great comment that hierarchy IS abuse. This one causes me to struggle, I think because I’ve been told for so long that hierarchy is how God set up the world and designed it to operate, and yet the reality is that I can’t think of a single example of a hierarchy that doesn’t have abuse in it. Major cognitive dissonance, right? The teaching and the practice are so far apart as to seem completely incompatible. It seems that any human with unilateral power will use it wrongly. In Spain they have a saying, “Give anyone a cap and a whistle and they’ll become a dictator.” The more I think about the truer it seems.
Has anyone else seen a hierarchy system that actually worked well and didn’t include some abuse?

“What if we never used the word ‘leader’ and instead only referred to ourselves as bondservants? Words mean things.” Lin, it’s true that words mean things. But it’s also true that the meaning of a word changes over time. So I don’t think changing the word would change the problem in the long run. The real problem isn’t the words we use but our own sinful hearts that lead us astray, blind us to our own sin and make us think we are better and know better than everyone else. Combine that with a position of power and you have a recipe for trouble.

In the field of leadership studies, only a little has been done on bad leadership. Some consistent recommendations are limited tenure, shared power and self-control. (Think of checks-and-balances in the US government system–the theory, at least, is sound.) Followers also have a responsibility to speak up and speak out when leaders make bad choices. Many of us fall down on that one out of fear of reprisals. In John we read several times that people were afraid to believe because they would be put out of the synagogue (9:22, 12:42). And some of the Jewish leaders wouldn’t openly acknowledge their faith and risk excommunication because “they loved human glory more than the glory of God.” (John 12:43). Speaking up against the establishment has always been a risky proposition: you might be excommunicated, or labeled “divisive” or suffer any number of reprisals.

The cycle of power can be devastating. The more an authority figure has, the less the followers will speak against him/her (though usually him), and the more power he accrues, and the worse the reprisals. That’s why it’s so important to be watchful and address things before they spiral out of control.
Unregulated power can quickly become spiritual abuse!

Sorry, I seem to have gotten on my soapbox 🙂

Very true, Cheryl! The leader would have to go first and model the way. Otherwise it would be hypocrisy–“do what I do, not what I say.”

I’ve thought for a long time that a large part of the problem is with our definition of “leadership.” Reading today I found this definition of leadership which I think may be one I could fully agree with: “all leadership is to help people to become like Jesus.”
If that’s our focus, if leadership is about helping another become more like Jesus, then maybe, just maybe, we’d forget about power and titles and (dare I add?) money that goes with some leadership positions, and just focus on being like Jesus. And abuse in the name of our mighty God and our precious Saviour would stop . . .