Sandy

I am now widowed and still run the ministry that my late husband and I had together. I’ve things breaking in my house since he passes away and some are telling me that it is because I don’t have a spiritual covering like a pastor over me. I have no problem with leaders and leadership my heart is always to honor all people. Yet, I’m still told that I need to be under someone’s covering. I’ve read this article once and now want to read it again. I’m struggling after two women told me I needed that covering and that’s why so many traumatic things happen to me. Any additional thoughts?

I agree with Tiro3.  Many of the comments directed toward you, Cheryl, fit the criteria for abusive language.  I’m so sorry you are being attacked instead of debated.  I don’t always agree with your views but you have always treated me with respect for which I am grateful and I have thoroughly enjoyed the respectful tone of this blog even though I don’t post often.

Scripture tells us to only speak that which is edifying to one another and to always season our speech with grace.   God’s Word tells us that people will know we are Christians by our love for one another, even those with whom we disagree on certain topics.  It is one thing to speak what we believe is truth to others but I do not think mockery and abusive language is ever appropriate from the mouth of a Christian.

Don,
It’s only recently that I’ve understood that, in many Christian’s minds, the Trinity is actually viewed as 3 Gods, though they might deny this if asked.  It apparently colors their perceptions of their Bible readings.  I see this as a warning for myself to be careful to remember that I’m certainly fallible and to test my beliefs to see if they are true reality or just my perception.

Lin,
My husband pointed me to Grudem’s Doctrines of the Bibles in which he explains his understanding of the subordination of the Trinity on pp. 113-117.  Basically he states that the Trinity is equal in being but the Son and Holy Spirit are subordinate to the Father in function or role.  IMHO, Grudem has a worldview that is seriously skewed toward hierarchy and is unable to understand that different functions or roles do not necessarily imply subordination.  Therefore, since men and women are different in some ways, in his worldview that would mean there would be a heirarchy of some sort.  He certainly has a skewed view of help as his teaching on ezer clearly shows.Â

The more I look at this teaching, the more concerned I become, first of all as a Christian and second of all, as a member of a SBC church.   AND thanks to some creative teaching by Don (thank you) I understand much more clearly the equality that exists between the Trinity.  I can certainly see how this heresy can lead to teachings such as the JWs on Christ.  Scary stuff.

Cheryl,
“I have been thinking a lot about will and man’s claim that the husband is to take authority over his wife and overrule his wife’s will whenever there is a difference in opinion on a decision in the marriage. I think I will do a post shortly on this issue.”

Please do this. I am looking forward to this as soon as you are able. 🙂

Cheryl,
I’ve actually stopped posting at CARM. It is difficult to engage in a conversation when some are not listening to others. It does not make for a very meaningful discussion.

I also worry about the Christian witness left there for non Christians to see. One of the big problems nonbelievers tell me they have with Christians is hyposcrisy. I always attempt to show the love of Christ even when I don’t agree with someone and graciousness is just good manners in my opinion. Yes, I know that we struggle with our flesh and Christians aren’t perfect. But Christians are called to love one another. I also know it’s not fair that nonbelievers hold Christians to a higher standard, but they do expect more from us. And frankly, the Holy Spirit has promised to help us be more godly. We aren’t just saved from sin – we are saved to a godly life. Not one of legalism, but one of love.

It’s a good thing to expose false Biblical teaching. It’s another thing to do that without a spirit of love. It’s also another thing to make disputable matters a issue of salvation. One must be careful to major on the majors and minor on the minors.

Lin,
I’m just beginning to study this but read just yesterday that a feminine form of the word was used for Phoebe – that’s the only difference. I could be wrong but, if not, then it would be equivalent to saying “waiter” or “waitress.” The same job, just different gender. Cheryl, correct me if I’m wrong in my understanding, please.

Well said, Metalwolf. We are told in Scriptures that we will know each other by our love. This doesn’t mean by our likemindedness in all things but by the way in which we lovingly handle even the disagreements between siblings.

Cheryl,
Yes, I agree with you that it is very childish. I also agree with you that it is double-speak. Funny you should use that word as many times while reading posts at CARM, I thought of 1984 and how the language wasn’t really communicating anything real or truthful. It seemed designed to hide the truth and anytime anyone came close to speaking truth, it was shut down.

I’m not afraid of God’s Word nor am I afraid of other’s understandings of God’s Word. It is in the midst of many counselors that wisdom is found. That doesn’t necessarily mean counselors of likemindedness but just ones who cause you to think things through all the way. Coming out of patriarchalism, I’m exceedingly distrustful when told I must accept this or that teaching without any references etc.

I have really appreciated the way in which the people at this site and at equality central have treated me even though I’ve been up front about being a comp. Everyone has been patient and willing to explain how they reasoned to get to their understandings. Sources and references have been freely posted for me, most of the time in easy to follow links. What a blessing and what a wonderful example of Christian discussion!

As to what happened about mentioning your name, I asked Exegetist or Don Johnson to post some sources for me after following some links. Exegetist suggested I google women in ministry and go to the 6th one on the list :). That really set Diane off and she said no one was allowed to advertise for web sites which promote false teaching. I obviously came over here anyway. 🙂 The post that was left for me by Ex was deleted.

Tiro3, I agree. It is best to carefully reread and edit out any harsh words, etc. The writing medium seems much harder to me to convey the nuances of our language and so precision and extra care is called for should we desire to be godly and gracious in our conversations.

Greg,
Thank you for the kind welcome and encouragement. I agree that there are many similarities between fundamentalism and Islam especially in regards to the treatment of women.

Quote:
“I’m only suggesting that you do your own homework and decide for yourself what God’s word says, and not what someone says it says.”

Yes, exactly. That’s how I’ve been working my way out of fundamentalism. I believe that for most of us, that’s the only way because, after learning that we have been misled in these matters, it’s difficult to trust anyone else – only God’s Word.

I’ve been working on this for a few years and now feel ready for other counselors whether or not I agree with them in totality. It gives me different perspectives and will ensure that I not slide into any wierdness on my own. 🙂 I went back to get my graduate degree from a well-known conservative Christian university and I so appreciate their wisdom on this. They teach clearly to never be afraid to hold others’ thoughts up to Scripture as long as Scripture remains the final authority. It’s matter of trusting God more than man for me.

Paula,
I’ve never thought of myself as a radical feminist before but find the thought quite funny. 🙂 Thank you!

Cheryl,
Consider me offering the holy hug of Christian sisterhood to you. I’m so sorry that you were so hurt over this disputable matter. One of the things that causes me to long for the return of our Lord is the promise that we will all see clearly and there will be no more divisiveness over these disputable matters!

Truthseeker,
I can’t speak for all comps but only for me. I agree that the Phillipians passage is used wrongly by some comps but not all of us. It clearly teaches that we are to esteem others better than ourselves and to look to the intersts of others but there is nothing there that would apply to the roles of men/women or husbands/wives. An easy reading of the passage makes it clear that it is meant for all Christians as an example. The idea of a hierarchy between men and women is a common misperception and causes some to be more likely to read their own agendas into Scripture passages.

Paula,
I agree that many times, comp does end up giving the men all privileges and restricting women. I do not believe that corresponds to God’s Word. If that were true, then why would God give me a brain? 🙂

Yes, I also read Eph. 5 to mean unity in the Spirit and do not see a hierarchy even implied. The very first injunction in the chapter tells us to walk in love.

I know that many comps would disagree with me as many people have differing viewpoints on Scripture. I am a complementarian in that I do believe in complementary roles. I’ve always believed that women should not be ordained as bishops/elders but that is what I’m researching now. I want to make certain that what I believe is Scriptural and not just tradition. I’ve been coming out of a very fundamental background and so have been working through each issue one by one to determine what God’s Word truly says and not what man says.

One thing I’m just beginning to learn now that I’ve started using the internet is that many believe the comp vs egal issue to be a matter of salvation. I’m not sure how that came about but then I’m the first to admit there is a great deal that I don’t understand. 🙂 I believe that salvation is more a matter of Jesus crucified, dead, and raised again for our sins and not about the roles of men and women.

Blessings to you

Truthseeker,
Thank you. I will seek out these sources.

Thank you for the warm welcome. I agree that this is not a salvation issue and so, as sisters in Christ, we can accept differing points of view. I know that I for one am fallible and am always searching for the Biblical foundations for my beliefs and not just tradition. 🙂

I have begun working through the articles you’ve linked and am indeed finding them thought provoking. Thank you for leading me to them. I’m also still searching for the older scholars as well. I’m sure there must be some out there as I have found that older, more conservative denominations have had women ministers such as the Waldensians and the Mennonites, so I’m not giving up. 🙂

Hello,
I was referred to this site by someone on another blog/forum and am finding things interesting here. I am a complentarian (probably would be considered a “moderate” one) who actually thinks the list you wrote was wonderful and right on target. Right now, I’m engaging in working on your fourth point though I was unaware of that before I came over here to look. 🙂

I’ve begun studying the role of women in the church as laid out by Scripture and am looking for other counselors in this search. I appreciate all the sources listed here and at CBE and they are very helpful, but so far, have been unable to find older, more “traditional” sources. Is there anyone here that may be able to help guide my search? BTW – I absolutely love the calm, respectful tone of this blog even when people disagree! 🙂