Tarun

Cheryl,

Sure, I’ll be happy to copy into the marriage post when it comes up but I’d just like to reply to your last post and I’ll leave it at that – Thanks.

(c)Gen 21:12 ESV But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.

The word translated “do” in “Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you” is the Hebrew word shama and it means to obey. God told Abraham to obey Sarah.

(T) That’s absolutely right , now look at the following in terms of Sarah’s attitude in approaching this matter I’ll pull in one verse before this one.

21:10 So she said to Abraham, “Banish that slave woman and her son, for the son of that slave woman will not be an heir along with my son Isaac!”

21:11 Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham greatly because Ishmael was his son.19 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not be upset about the boy or your slave wife. Do all that Sarah is telling you because through Isaac your descendants will be counted.

Look at the pattern set up here.

(1)Sarah “needs” Abraham’s consent to Banish the slave woman which is why she asks him to do so and doesnt do so herself regardless of his consent.
(2)Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham.
(3)Lets stop here for a minute and ponder what would have happenned had God not intervened. Hagar would not have been asked to leave because Abraham’s consent was not going to be given considering Sarah’s demand displeased him and that would have been that. Hagar would not have gone anywhere and Sarah would have to live with her in obedience to Abraham’s lack of consent and she would have to do it with a willing heart.

(4)This is exactly my point, if the wife is obedient to the Husband as we know Sarah was (refer 1 Peter) she will receive the reward for her faith in following the Word to obey her husband and in this case God himself intervened and expressly instructs Abraham to do what Sarah told him to do because Abraham was clearly in the wrong and Sarah was right (in accordance with the Lords will)
(5)That’s how the system is set up to work. obedience to the Husband is a faith proposition and the “Just shall walk by faith”
(6)In other words the Wife is subject to the Husband as to the Lord and the Husband is subject to the Lord “not to the wife” but when the wife is obedient in faith to the husband then she receives the reward for her obedience to the husband from the Lord who intervenes and brings justice as always and especially when the Husband is misusing his God given position as was clearly the case here . .

I’m over and out. This was fun and I hope it was helpful at some point. U take care.

Cheryl,

(C)My friend, you cannot take two unrelated passages and make an application between the two. Ephesians is not talking about a law or governing authority. That would be completely reading into the text.

(T)Here are the 2 scriptures in brief again :
(a)Ephesians talks about “Wives submitting to Husbands as to the Lord” and
(b)Romans goes “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.”

The application I am making is that as total obedience to a Governing authority is not Idolatory as accepted by you and me. In the same way complete obedience of a wife to her husband “as” to the Lord is not Idolatory and this is only “one” of the aspects that would constitute a wife’s overall attitude to the husband “without” being idolatorous.

Now going by earlier posts I am quite sure you will say that nowhere in Ephesians does it say that a wife has to “totally obey” her Husband which is exactly what it means and this can be proven here.

1 Peter 3 1-6 “In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct.3:3 Let your beauty not be external – the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes – 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God’s sight. 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so”

Lets look at this exaltation to the wife point by point.

Point 1. Be Subject to your own husband
Point 2. Even if Husbands are disobedient to the Word they will be won over without a word (from the wife)by the way the wife lives.
How much clearer can Scripture be, Even if the man is ungodly the Godly wife is expected to win him over by “the way she lives” and “without a word”
I would like to emphasise the “without a word” bit and please note that this is for a man disobedient to the word of God.
How much more should she remain “without a word” to a Godly husband who is following the leading of the Lord the best he knows how.
– Now what I am saying here is that the “without a word” is an attitude of the heart. It is not mute obedience with rebellion in the heart but a total surrender of her will to the husband in heart (check Vs 4) This obviously follows through in action even if she thinks differently.(Please dont go into the idolatory bit here, we’ve already dealt with the difference)
She can do this confidently, believing God to work out the situation for her and her husbands best ineterest knowing that she is in line with God’s word. It’s actually a question of the Wife’s faith in God and trusting him with childlike trust to reward her for her faith as opposed to her relying on her own wisdom and strategies which may be superior to her Husband’s in the natural and is exactly why she is put in that position so she may be proven of God in obeying the Husband given to her by God even if she knows differently and possibly better in the natural and thereby exhibiting trust in God and not her own strategies.

****Whew****

Point 3. Again (in Vs 5)being subject to your Husbands (note how it is mentioned twice in this very same passage)

Point 4. Lets discuss Sarah calling Abraham lord – Of course its tradition, she is not replacing Abraham for God what she is doing is exalting him as high as she knows to do.
Jesus said, “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34).
Now would’nt you say that all Sarah would have been giving him is Lip service when she calls him lord and doesn’t obey him when he states his particular view on a subject and expects her to follow him.
The fact is that the verse 3:6 actually goes “like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.

So what Peter is trying to say here is that
(a)Sarah obeyed
(b)the obedience was done with a heart attitude which was so reverent that out of the mouth came “lord”

Here again let me very clearly say that the word lord is not the point , a wife can call her husband anything she wants and that they are comfortable with but when push comes to shove God and the husband know that the wife will surrender her will to his. If she doesnt, its disobedience and we just established that obedience is a must.

Now I ask you –
(a)If there are 2 priests in the home and the wife priest is expected to obey the husband priest “absolutely” wouldn’nt the husband priest be the leader ? I’d say that’s kind of common sense

(b)and if the Husband priest is the “leader” of the wife priest and hence the household.
He becomes by God given right the “Priest of the home”

Trust that clarifies.

Later. . . .

That’s quite a bit I need to write now 🙂 but before I go into breaking that up I’d like to bring to the forefront a few scriptures which will put what I believe is the pivotal scripture in this discussion (Eph 5) in context and rightly divide the Word.

So If this is the scripture which the Lord has provided to show that the Husband is called to lead
i.e
5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body. 5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

then a reiteration of similar obedience to God’s authority structure that he set up in His soverign Wisdom (Spend a minute on the scripture below)

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment

When Romans 13:1 says “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities” Would’nt it be right to say that the “Governing authority” plays the lead role. I’d like you to make the difference between obeying the law of the land that has been set up by the leader of the land and saying that to follow the law of the land in totality is idolatory. It is an authority structure set up by God for our benefit.

Now I may have my own opinion about the law of the land I live in and may actually feel that it is downright dumb but I am still expected to follow it unless it contradicts the Word of God.

In the situation immediately above who would you say is the leader – me as a Godfearing citizen or the Head of State who is creating the rules I follow ? Sure I can vote, Sure I can petition, Sure I can try and influence the leader every leagal way I can but the final decision lies very clearly with the ruler doesnt it. That establishes leadership and I am sure you can draw the line between that and Idolatory which can be defined as a situation that Shadrach and gang had to face.

Now apply the same principle to Ephesians 5:22- 24

Can you still say that this scripture “5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body.” does not give the Husband the mantle of leadership and the final word(which the Husband is accountable to God for)
Sure the Wife can petition, influence and call in support but at the end of the day if she is unable to persuade him to change his mind “she is to follow his direction unless it contradicts the Word” Of course he is going to be wrong many a time and is she called to go her own way then ?

No,Not if you take 1 Peter 3 1-6 into consideration ***In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct.3:3 Let your beauty not be external – the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes – 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God’s sight. 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so.****

Ok Cheryl, I’m sure you will have something to say about this . I cant wait : )
The rain has stopped and I got to ride off..

Cheryl,

I’m glad I popped by too 🙂 and lets use your
style of response to clarify my stance,

(C)There are many things that Jesus is to the Church that the husband is not.
(T) I agree.

(C)Although Jesus is “head” of the church and the husband is “head” of the wife, Jesus is also Savior of the church and Lord of the church and God of the church. The husband is none of these things.
(T)I was not trying to imply that the Husband “is” the Saviour/Lord and God of his wife.That is a role that only Christ can fulfill. However even though he “is not” what Christ is in full, his wife is expected to have an attitude toward him “as if he were”.

(C)We cannot just input everything that Jesus is to the husband unless the scripture tells us so.
(T) We are not inputing everything that Jesus is to the Husband, what we are doing is defining the attitude a wife should have towards her Husband and scripture does tell us so.
***Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands “as” to the Lord ***

The key word in this verse being “as”

(C) Jesus is the only High Priest and the husband is not a secondary high priest of the wife. Jesus is unique in this aspect.
(T)In no way did I intend to mean that the husband is a secondary high priest. There is only one High priest and that is Jesus but the point I was trying to make was that even though both men and women are designated priests we still look up as a church to Jesus who is a priest too but his office is of “The” High priest and in the same way that the body of Christ looks up to Jesus as the High priest (being priests themselves)so also should a wife look up to her Husband as her head not considering him to be “the” High priest but definitely a priest who has the calling to lead and she as a priest with a calling to follow.

***Ephesians 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body***

I did use “high priest of the wife” to illustrate that he was called to be the spiritual leader of the couple in an aspect similar to the differences in office between Christ who is a leader of the church of priests.

(C)If the husband was the high priest of his wife then the husband would have to offer the sacrifice for his wife and would be responsible for her salvation. Are you prepared to go that far?

(T)If I came across as meaning “the” High priest to the wife let me make it clear that it was not the meaning I intended. Of course Jesus is the only mediator in respect to salvation.
and to answer your question, Yes I am called to give myself for her and I will or atleast die trying. I do not mean a sacrifice which leads to salvation for my wife as I know it will not, but sacrifice in as much as is required even unto death putting her before myself which by the way is a given when you are talking about the love Jesus had for the church and incidentally is also a parallel calling for the Christian, Revelation 12:11c “and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

(C)I am not, nor does scripture say a word about the husband as functioning as any kind of high priest responsible for the spirituality of his wife or for her salvation.
(T)Refer you to my last response for the salvation bit but in terms of the spirituality of his wife I would say that scripture does not say that he is responsible but that he is called to (there is a difference)lead her spiritual walk upwards, refer below

Ephesians 5:27 so that he may present the church to himself as glorious – not having a stain or wrinkle, or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.36 5:28 In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies

Please note the very clear “In the same way”

(C)If it were we would find places where the husband is responsible for his wife’s spiritual direction. Adam was never held responsible for Eve’s choice and neither was Sapphira exonerated because she followed her husband’s suggestion that they both lie about the piece of property that they sold. Unfortunately many women have been influenced to believe that they are not responsible for their actions as long as their husband oversees them and guides them. God says this is not true when he judges women separately from their husbands. God never gives us any indication that husbands will be held responsible for their wives or that wives are “home free” by following their husbands. All of us are required to be mature Christians and to follow the Lord individually.

(T)The husband is not held responsible for his wifes decisions, neither are wives allowed to be irresponsble in following the lead of their Husband. It is a question of who leads and who follows if its quite obvious the Husband is guiding the wife the wrong way then she is expected to adhere to the Word of God as a priest in her own right and follow the leading of the Spirit.

However if it is for e.g something like choosing a church when both have different preferences and both churches seem good I believe that the Husband’s prayerful choice should prevail.

(C) All of us are required to be mature Christians and to follow the Lord individually
(T) Let me put it this way – when you are “married” we are required to be mature Christians and follow the Lord “together”

(C)Also no where does God ever give the man the mandate of a priest who makes the spiritual decisions for his wife.
(T) Yes, he does not give him the mandate of a priest who makes the spiritual decisions for his wife in those words exactly but what he does say is ***Eph5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.***

We all have a free will and Jesus does not make our spiritual decisions for us, however He does let us know what His opinion is and I think that we would be wise to follow – would’nt you ?

Please note that I am not saying the Husband’s decisions are always right but that if a couple grow closer and closer in their walk with the Lord as they should then the Husband making spiritual decisions in areas which are day-day would be expected and desired, the wife would be rightly expected to follow after deferring to the Word as the final authority.

In that context take into account the following factors,
(a)if men and women are priests
(b)all Christians are called to a life of ministry
(c)the home is socio-setup within which the husband and wife fulfill a part of their their priestly calling
(d)The husband is expected to provide leadership in their spiritual walk together

I think it would be safe to say that in the context of the home the Husband is the priest.
Please note that I am not taking away the wife’s calling as a priest but when we use the term “Husband is the priest of the home” what we are implying is that he is the spiritual head in the context of his household.

Look at the other 2 ways of putting it across.
a) The wife is the priest of the home implies the wife leads , Husband follows
b) Both are priests of the Home implies both can move in opposite directions even when in accordance with the word based on personal opinion and past experience and anything else which might cause them to take different paths

(C)The issue of submission is a big one and one that we will explore further in this blog after we are done with the spiritual gifts of men and women.
(T)I look forward to it.

(C)Women too need to trust and obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and keep their homes surrounded with the love of God.
(T)True

(C)Nowhere are women exempt from finding out the Holy Spirit’s will for them by trusting in the husband’s “hearing from God”
(T)This is the way it works. Since there is only One Holy Spirit. He will lead both the Husband and the Wife down the same road. However when both have heard differently (problem of the flesh)the Word is looked into, and who-soever’s leading aligns with the Word of God goes. Lets say both Husband and Wife have heard from God differently(Problem of the flesh)and both inspirations align with the word then the Husband who is the Head should be obeyed otherwise there is not really much point in the Word of God calling him the head is there ?

(C)Women too are to have an intimate relationship with God and they too are to hear from God.
(T)Yes and Amen.

(C)To make women’s responsibility with God any less is to deny that men and women are equal before God
(T)Their responsibilities are not lesser or greater. They are different and Yes, Men and Women are equal but unique.

(C)and equally can have an intimate relationship with God.
(T)Yes and Amen.

(C)I hope that helps
(T)I do too.

May God bless.
T

Hey Cheryl.

Interesting that the pivotal scripture in relation to authority structure in the marriage has not been discussed, I bring it to light in this post and invite commentary

***Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body***

You have rightfully said that it is not mentioned anywhere in the bible that the Husband is specifically “Priest of the Home” and that “All” in the body of Christ (both men and women) are called to be priests. True but on an examination of the relationship of Christ and the church , you must admit that Christ is the “High” Priest of the church and the point I’m trying to make is that He remains the “High” and the “only High” priest even when His entire body of believers are priests themselves.

Granted the husband is not designated the “title” priest of the home but would it also be correct to say that he is the High priest of His wife in replication of Christ’s leading of the church.

***5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything***

If wives are called to submit to the husband in “everything”, shouldnt the husband be responsible if not solely at least to the greater extent of his calling in the spiritual direction his wife and children are taking. And if that be the case would’nt “The priest of the Home” be an appropriate title to describe his calling.

You are right in saying that it is a responsibility which men sometimes feel a tendency to find burdensome but that would not be the case if the couple were “equally yoked” and the Husband realizes that his burden is light and his yoke is easy. All he needs to do is trust and obey the leading of the mighty Holy spirit and keep his home surrounded with the love of God.