Noodling With The Greek Grammar

I think discussing the implications of Slick’s exegesis is good enough.  The Holy Spirit will have to help him as he does all of us when it comes to how we handle the Word.  Thanks for bringing up the matter.  I thought Matt had given up on the issue.

I was wrong.

When Paul (and the Holy Spirit) said “she”, the reference can only grammatically go back to a single “woman” in verses 11 & 12 since Eve is dead and gone and she cannot do things in the future.

I think “Eve” is representative, and the passage is prophetic.

Matt 18 does not stop with just going to the individual.  It seems you have tried that, at some point you go to his church.
FWIIW, I have read that the books in the NT range in their being high Greek or low Greek.  That is, some books are very educated Greek and some are not.

The way I understand 1 Tim 2:15 (my translation) is: She will be saved through the Childbearing; if they each continue in faith and love and holiness with self control.
The last Greek word is sophrosune, which means sanity or self-control; in any case, it is something that a specific person has, not a group.  So I emend the text to add “each” to clarify this.

So I see it as POSSIBLE that Paul is talking about individuals in a group.  Each person’s salvation is based on that person’s actions, my working out of my salvation depends on what I choose, not my spouse or friend or whomever.

Part of the challenge in interpreting 1 Tim is that Paul had a shared context with Timothy that we today lack, so Paul could write in a compressed form and Timothy would know what Paul was referring to, while we are less sure.

missional girl,
Matt certainly hasn’t given up on the matter.  In fact his vice-president put “sticky” labels on the discussion so that the whole world can know that I have refused Matt’s “invitation” to an audio debate and that I had been refuted already.  Matt has never answered my “refutation” of his “refutation” nor has he answered 1 Timothy 2:15 regarding the grammar except to say that the grammar is in error.  This kind of “refutation” is irresponsible in my opinion.

Charis,
I too believe “the childbearing” to be a reference to the fulfillment of prophecy which was given in Genesis 3 to the woman and reiterated in Rev. 12 as the Messiah’s birth.

Don,
It appears that Matt Slick has no interest in meeting with me over any matter even a Matthew 18 issue.  The next step would appear to be going to his church.

As far as salvation that comes with the help of others, I think there are situations when the deception is so strong that only through the help of the Holy Spirit’s work that often is done through the help of dedicated Christians, can a person come out of the deception.  I know how hard it is for a person to come out of the deception of the Jehovah’s Witnesses as I led a support group for those coming out for 16 years.  If deception is one of the keys to understanding 1 Timothy 2:11-15, then helping the deceived one stay away from the deceiving influences can be a tremendous help.  The pull back into the deception is common.  Many of the people from the support group shared with me the doubts and attack on their mind even years after their exodus from the captivity of the Watchtower.

I do agree that Paul’s personal letter to Timothy is hard to understand because there are things that Timothy knew about the situation that we cannot readily pick up.  I think there is enough evidence in the text with the specific wording and specific grammar that we can have a good foundational understanding that what Paul is prohibiting is not godly biblical teaching.  What he is prohibiting is the teaching of error.

Don,
One other thing that I forgot to comment on…the Greek is a higher Greek in some areas of the bible than other areas.  The Greek is a very low Greek with some of the fishermen 🙂  However Paul’s grasp of the Greek is very good and no one makes any grammar errors in their level of Greek.  The fully agree with Matt’s Greek expert on this.

Paul was a diaspora Jew who was a Torah scholar.  The idea that he would make a Greek grammar mistake under the inspiritation of the Holy Spirit is preposterous.  When someone goes to that length, it just shows how far they will go to make Scripture say what they wish.

Amazing. Matt is really really reaching on this issue.

Do you have a link for the entire interview.

Yup, I just got suspended from CARM.  You cannot call them to account.  I asked for a meeting with Matt Slick to have a Matthew 18 meeting with me.  He won’t answer me.  Now I am banned/suspended from CARM.  When people refuse to conform to God’s truth, they will do anything they can to stop the truth from being told.  If they can’t control you, they will shut you up.  But the fact is they cannot control me here.  They cannot stop us from speaking out regarding what the truth is.  God’s freedom is so beautiful, isn’t it?

But at the same time that Matt is setting up such a charge against the Holy Spirit of inspiring an error in the grammar, his own Greek expert is refuting his premise

This is a big problem now, Mr. Matt is not claiming God “The Holy Spirit” errors!!!!!!!!!!! I think you should put this topic or argument in you teaching DVD on the Trinity. Use his quote and rebuke it on your DVD. I’m sure there are more people who are listening to his false teaching! This needs to be in your DVD Cheryl!

I hope you are doing well, did you get my last e-mail Cheryl? Keep going strong for our Lord Jesus!

This is a very serious matter and must be addressed so that there can be repentance and turning away from this bad behavior and forgiveness.  How many more precious sisters in Christ will be hurt by this kind of behavior?  Who will stand up and help to put a stop to it?  My question is, what would Jesus do?

I stand with you on this issue Cheryl, I’m your second witness! A matt. 18 needs to be done because they are messing with the Holy Spirit and this bad behavior of his needs to stop! I would not want to be in his shoes on judgement day! I support my sisters in Christ all the way!

Michael,
I am sure I did get your last email.  I have just been so busy that it has been difficult to keep up.  The Trinity DVD has already been scripted and filmed and it is longer than I would like so I will be working to try to edit it down a little.  There is so much more that could be said but I have to stick to the most important parts regarding the authority of the Son in the Trinity.  Perhaps there will be further opportunity for another DVD on this subject.  Right now I am up to my ears in editing and it is coming along really well.  Lots to do but it is very exciting seeing it come to life at my fingertips!

Thank you Michael for standing with me!  I have gone the next step in Matthew 18 and gone to Matt’s Pastor.  If he is a really good Pastor he will do something about the abuses.  My Pastor has already tried to get Matt to see things rationally but Matt wouldn’t listen.  Perhaps Matt will listen to his own Pastor.

Any group can decide the reasons for membership and non-membership.  But you now have received an HONOR that a few others that were at CARM also received.  I am sure you can see why it is an HONOR.

Don,

Yes, I guess it is a true honor because this “honor” is granted at CARM for those who push for truth. My push for truth was regarding Matt’s statements that the Holy Spirit can inspire errors in the grammar on purpose and that the “errors” in 1 Timothy 2:15 were put there on purpose, inspired by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul because of Paul’s ignorance of the Greek grammar(!) I don’t think so! Matt attempts to qualify 1 Timothy 2:15 as a piece of “poetry” when it is obviously not poetry but instructions by Paul to Timothy, absolutely boggle my mind. My pointing out this unorthodox attempt at looking at the Greek grammar in an “attempt” to refute me and also my request for a meeting with Matt to resolve his attacks on my character was too much for them to handle. Honestly, I can only say that Matt appears to be a runner who isn’t about to be called into question for his actions. Fearful men run away when they are challenged to work things out in person. I used to think that Matt was bold, but I think he is only bold when he thinks he has control and can win. If he is called to admit that he made an error or called to account for his abusive language against a sister in Christ, he is nowhere to be found. That is certainly not bravery. He is not interested in following the biblical method to resolve these problems. I feel very sorry for Matt.

Of course they will still continue to monitor my blog as they always do, in order to read what I have to say. But now they can’t even respond to what I write because they kicked me off their discussion board and they have vowed not to comment here. They have even less control now then they ever did before. 😉

One of the ways to have pride is to think it is not possible to be wrong.  This can lead to arrogance.

My take is the leaders at CARM deal with cultists a lot and it is very easy to see how they are wrong in a big way.  But dealing with believers is different.

I want to always be willing to learn more and change.  I have changed what I believed about something many times in my walk, I am certainly not the same as when I first believed.

Thank you Michael for standing with me!  I have gone the next step in Matthew 18 and gone to Matt’s Pastor.  If he is a really good Pastor he will do something about the abuses.  My Pastor has already tried to get Matt to see things rationally but Matt wouldn’t listen.  Perhaps Matt will listen to his own Pastor.

There is so much more that could be said but I have to stick to the most important parts regarding the authority of the Son in the Trinity.

Thanks Cheryl for getting back to me, Our lord will help you in the editing! Maybe once you wrap time one up, work on a second. This DVD should be more then enough though, Getting and Finding the right Real Jesus of Scripture! Once this is out I can’t wait to buy alot of copies! I’m sending one to Harvest church,  IL. Remeber I was going back and forth with he on this issue. This DVD will be such a blessing of Great Light! Also maybe offer a two pack later on WIM & Trinity DVDs ! Just giving you ideas! What is the Title of you New DVD going to be? Also if you need any money don’t be affraid to ask us/me. Set up a donate system through paypal when you have time, so we can give. I feel the Lord leading me in this way. Bye for now
               Much Love In Christ To You and your Family, Michael

Michael,
The name of the 2 DVD set is
“The Trinity – Eternity Past to Eternity Future
Explaining Truth & Exposing Error”

Thanks again for your support.  This is a very important project and we sure do need prayer support.

I am rereading Bruce Fleming’s book “Familiar “Leadership” Heresies Uncovered” (P.S. I think this is a very strange title but has great insights.).

On p. 268 he says Paul repeats a word from 1 Tim 2:9 in 1 Tim 2:15 (I deduced the word is sophrosune (sobriety).  He claims this is an anacoluthon connecting the 2:15b with 2:9.

That is an interesting observation, Don

The famous passage whence cometh the concept of the “Titus 2 Woman” also has a relative of that same word twice within the span of a few verses.

For women to have “sophron…….” is apparently EXTREMELY important to Paul and to God!

Here is an insight into Titus that Kenneth Bailey had which I like.

Titus is charged to teach older men, older women (these might be the elders) and younger men, but the older women are charged to teach the younger women, per Titus 2:1-6.  Now WHY might Paul instruct Titus to not directly teach younger women?  I think the answer is because it would be cross-gender to a person of similar age.

A teacher is in authority while teaching (to maintain order).  So to avoid any appearance of impropriety in the 1st century, Titus should avoid directly teaching young women, as he is a young man.  It helps to know that adultery was just assumed when a man was along with 1 or more women, as the Jewish sages taught that they would seduce him.  This last from Instone-Brewer, not Bailey.

Insightful, Don!

I wonder if the older women are given that responsibility because they understand- by long experience and trial and error- the nature of living in a woman’s skin with a sinful man?  “WIVES, submit to your husbands” Eph 5 and “Likewise you WIVES…” 1 Pet 3 are clearly addressed right to WIVES, whom God, Peter, and Paul apparently trust to discern the meaning apart from male “intermediaries” (and or “scholarly credentials”, I might add).

I have seen teaching of passages which Paul, Peter, God address exclusively to wives and women “twisted” in a certain way which on the surface- seem “beneficial” to men (in the way it stifles conflict and accountability) but really is not at all in the man’s best interest.  Some Christian “marriage books” sound to me more like manuals to enable ongoing husbandly immaturity, sin, and selfishness.

Interestingly, I have had several older female Christian mentors and never once one who teaches me “to love husband and children” in warm fuzzy weak non-confrontational way I think some  perceive a “Titus 2 woman”.

The man was the paterfamilias of a family, as such he was in charge of his wife, kids and slaves.  Paul addresses comments to all 6 roles and puts the weaker of each pair first in his discussion, in the position of honor.  The cultural assumption would be you just tell the man and he can take care of the rest of the details, but Paul does not do that.  The man in that culture has effectively no limits over his household but Paul gives limits.  This was revolutionary, but may not seem so today, it may seem like Paul is just giving good advice, which he is doing, but he is doing a lot more than that.

This is why I consider it essential to know the 1st century context when interpreting these verses, so many so-called teachers do not do that and miss a lot.

Thanks Don!  It looks like a substantial piece of work.  I haven’t had the time to read it yet as I am in the final stages of editing work, but I will save it for later and it is listed here for anyone else who would like to have a look at a scholarly work.