Irving Bible Church

90% sure is better than zero!

Now expect some condemnatory fatwas from high-profile members of the SBC or elsewhere

You mean the ones who have written the Christian Talmud?  Sigh.

Yep. From now on, any time a self-important imam of what used to be Christianity issues another ruling over their perceived subjects, I’m calling it what it is: a fatwa.

The situation in Christendumb is so pathetic now. There is no love, no grace, no genuine concern about either the lost or the alleged backslidden. They shoot their wounded and make their fellow servants their enemies. They hide their own grievous sins under cloaks of deceit and conceit. They put out “hits” on anyone who crosses them and treat them worse than the old Soviet Union treated political dissidents.

This is the “Christianity” the world is seeing. No wonder they say it’s like the Taliban; it’s true! And it’s just like Malachi said:

15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly evildoers prosper, and even when they put God to the test, they get away with it.’ ” 16 Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name. 17 “On the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty, “they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

We don’t get justice now, or see God punish the hired hands, but that Day is fast approaching.

Oops… that’s Malachi chapter 3.

It does concern me about the seemingly vociferous response by some of the non-egals to this “defection” in their ranks.

My take is part of the non-egal’s argument (see Grudem) is that the words of God about “no women teaching men” are clear and just need to be obeyed.  When someone deviates in just a slight amount from the supposed orthodoxy of CBMW and co., it calls into question their argument based on clarity.  The more they respond with paper after paper, the more they self-repudiate their claim of supposed clarity.

This means they are in a no-win position from their viewpoint and they do not like that, so they wish all who think like them would quit making waves and just agree with them.  When some do not, it invokes their fear response, so they think it is entirely justified to respond in ways to try to create doubt and fear in the “defector”.

As Wade Burleson points out on his blog, there was SUPPOSED to be agreement on the (Southern) Baptist Faith and Message that said (in effect) no women  pastors, but left it up to churches whether women could teach.

But that is not good enough for some non-egals, the “evil virus” of women teaching men needs to be eradicated or else the bogeyman (liberalism) will come and the Bible will mean anything you want.

Don,

I like what you said here:

The more they respond with paper after paper, the more they self-repudiate their claim of supposed clarity.

This is so true.  If it was so “clear” then how come churches don’t know how to implement it without a whole set of additional “rules”?  How come churches have to write to CBMW to find out if they can have women ushers and women serving communion?  If women are not allowed, then where is the dividing line?  This position only says that no one really knows.  Where is a set rule and where does conscience play into it?  But if we see scripture as allowing women to follow Jesus in using their gifts in the way that men can follow Jesus, then we don’t need organizations like CBMW.  We can now decide for ourselves and allow the scriptural position that men and women are spiritually equal before God and as spiritual equals they can both use their gifts for the benefit of the common good.

Irving church also stands out as a perfect example of an egalitarian view being upheld because of scripture.  I noticed that during their 18 month study of the scriptures they also studied both sides from both CBMW books and egalitarian books.  If the issue was so “clear” as CBMW says, then why didn’t their “clear” view convince those who were clearly very open to scripture and who only wanted to hold tightly to the scriptures.

Paula,

I am very saddened by the fight that goes on in the church over secondary issues.  Those who devour their brother or sister in Christ over a secondary issue are in danger of producing bad fruit.  Jesus said that only good fruit comes from a good tree.  A bad tree cannot bear good fruit and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.   This doesn’t mean that we don’t ever sin.  But our attitude towards sin is different than the one who bears bad fruit.  One who sins and repents and turns from their sin will be forgiven.  The one who covers over their sin will not prosper.  While we may not see the judgment right now, God has promised to be call to account.  When we have God on our side as our Advocate, we will come through the battle.  I would hope that all of us would like to have good fruit no matter which side of the fence we sit on regarding women in ministry.

I cant’ help but recall Ken Burns’ film “The Civil War”.
I remember Shelby Foote reading some old letters by a slave owner who in his inner conscience wished it wasn’t so.

Ironically, the opening salvos of a war that will split much of Southern protestantism as well as Northern, have begun at Irving Bible Church.

I say, let the Pharisees have their own religion and club. Who needs them? They would literally have to confiscate our computers to silence us, and then we’d just go underground. Then they’d have to hunt and kill, like the popes of old, like the ancient Roman emperors. And this, they say with a straight face, is orthodox Christianity.

“The more they respond with paper after paper, the more they self-repudiate their claim of supposed clarity.”

yes, Don, very good point. Years ago these many ‘papers’ were not needed. No one questioned the teaching except a few unknown scholars who had no big platform. But now with so many resources to study and instant communication it is hard for those like CBMW to control people anymore. That is why they use shame,  insults and many papers with big words to promote their position. They also use insults calling people liberals, radical feminists, etc.

They have been somewhat successful in using an old advertising trick of connecting unrelated thoughts into people’s minds to create a belief. They have connected two completely unrelated positions of women teaching men to homosexuality being accepted by the church. It is amazing how many people actually believe this and do even question the premise! They even have a fancy term for it: Trajectory hermeneutics.

So the thought is implanted: If a woman teaches a man we WILL have homosexual preachers. This successful tactic would make Goebbels proud.

I hate to say it, but progress is slow. IBC took a really well-thought move. If anything is going to change in the South, we have to put aside our anger and be the harbingers of grace. Its not fair, its not right, and it sucks for those who it squashes. I say this as one who feels continually squashed underfoot by the church. We, as a movement, have to move like water, moving through whatever crevice will allow us and breaking down the hardness however we can. We have to persist in what we know is right and trust that God will bring down the mighty and the proud.
The beginning of wisdom is fear of God, and while approaching the Scriptures we need to be careful to not judge another’s servant. Their feelings are to be regarded as importantant and as valid as our own. If we demonize them and disregard their faith, then we are the proud that will fall to our own destruction. Let them be the babbling idiots, who will reveal their true character in time.
I am a part of a church that considers itself progressive, that ordains women as far as children’s ministry goes but quietly dismisses women to their “roles” in its complimentarianism. I struggle everyday because I want to work in ministry, but I need cultivation and mentorship first. This has been very hard to come by and so far I have not been successful. I’ve spoken to Jackie Roese on the subject and she has simply kept her resolve, aknowledging the situation and perfecting her craft. Now IBC has opened this door. IBC is really influential in our area. I hope this opens doors everywhere.

April,

Very well said! In fact I believe your words are prophetic.

We, as a movement, have to move like water, moving through whatever crevice will allow us and breaking down the hardness however we can. We have to persist in what we know is right and trust that God will bring down the mighty and the proud.

God has said that He will resist the proud and give grace to the humble. I love the analogy to water. I used to think that I could work hard to remove the barriers that stop the strong complementarians from giving grace to women, but I have come to understand that it isn’t arguments that keep many of them as strong complementarians. It is things other than arguments. One of the strongest “things” is pride and may I even say arrogance. This is the realm of God’s intervention as he will resist the proud and when they have walked the full pathway of their pride, they will be brought low through the fruit of their own actions. God will then get the glory, not us.

Thank you for coming here and blessing us with such profound words. Your words resonate in my heart as being the godly way of grace in action and yet not turning one iota from the pathway that God has set before us.