Tiffany

Ok I typed a very long response I have no idea what happened to it…. hope to recreate it, we’ll see. If it appears I left out a step in my thinking please ask. I probably just forgot thinking I had already stated it elsewhere. Thanks.

TL#211″Personal testimony is important. From personal testimony we hear that the majority of women who live within a male dominated marriage suffer from it . Why is that, do you suppose?” This is an unsupportable claim. You can say that the majority women that you have met, the majority of blogs you have read, the majority of comments you have received, but your claims have to stop there. Because I can say with equal accuracy that the majority of women that I know who used to be egalitarians but are now complementarians have found great joy, their marriages strengthened, and their relationship with God deepened.

And here we come to the crux of the matter. Personal testimonies can be useful, but they differ from person to person. Personal experience does not dictate truth. As such I feel no need to answer you question in that paragraph.

As to your last paragraph, I have read your responses (I feel the need to point out here that by entering into this discussion I am not under any obligation to answer all questions directed to me. I hope that I am able to as I have time, but I may not answer all of them or answer them to everyone’s satisfaction. Likewise I don’t considering anyone else to be under any obligation to answer all of my questions. And if they don’t I don’t assume any motive, take offense, or think that they don’t have an suitable answer and so are ignoring me. I am sure everyone can agree that internet time/blog conversations are very far down the list of everyone’s priorities. I am sure that I am not going to have ample time to satisfy everyone.) In this case however I have both the time and inclination to answer your question:

Eph5:23For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30because we are members of his body. 3I “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.”

I think you and I have very different views about the lordship of Christ over the Church. As such I am not sure how far we can get along this line. I am more than happy to continue to try (as I have time) if you would like.

TL#181 “The two shall become one flesh is a reference to marriage — of which Christ emulates. IOW Christ’s relationship with the church is likened to the oneness of a marriage. It is not the marriage relationship that reflects the Lord and the church. It is the relationship of Christ sacrificing Himself for the benefit of the church that is likened to a marriage. You have it backwards.”

I disagree. I don’t think God created institutions on accident or without purpose. Just like the animal sacrifices are a model of the sacrifice that is to come (designed that way from the beginning by God, not referenced in retrospect) so marriage was designed from the beginning as a model of Christ and the Church. I think the Bible suppose the whole of the marriage relationship is a model for the whole of the relationship of Christ and the Church. Not a perfect representation or a one to one corollary any more than the animal sacrifices were to Christ’s sacrifice, but representative non the less. If you think that it is only one aspect of the relationship that is reflected then we are never going to come to any sort of agreement. Which is fine.

TL#215 you are right that the wife is told to submit herself. This is what I have been saying all along and no different. The Bible (as Pastor Jim Wilson put it) “focuses on the chain of submission not the chain of command”. So I think the question that each wife but seek God on is, how is the Church to submit to Christ? And then do likewise.

cheryl- I hope to answer your comments towards me next, but since I had to re-do this comment I don’t know when that will be. 🙂 This does turn out to be a good few days for this as I sprained my ankle and am ignoring all housework. 🙂