gengwall

NN- I will give my 2 cents on 239.

“To prove that we must examine the particular instructions give:
Women are told to “hupotassoe” their husbands – this same general instruction is used by Paul in the same context to describe the proper actions of citizens toward their governments and slaves toward their masters.”

And Christians to each other. You seem to conveniently leave out the preceeding verse.

“Furthermore, we are instructed by the Christ that we are to obey the governing authorities (”render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”) so we must interpret Paul’s specific instructions to wives to be in keeping with his use of the words to describe other obedience relationships. Since Paul explicitly gives no such equivalent instruction to the husband the relationship logically must be hierarchical.”

No, it doesn’t logically have to be a hierarchy. Are we instructed to obey the other Christians that we are submitting to in the prior verse? Where is the hierarchy that you believe must logically exist in Ephesians 5:21?

NN – I suggest that you are missing one possibility. I suggest that Paul is turning submission on its head. Sure, Paul talks about hierarchical submission in other contexts such as government/citizen, and master/slave. But marriage and the body of Christ are far cries from those types of relationships. Certainly you would agree with that. Isn’t it possible that Paul is showing us in Eph 5 a different kind of submission, one that is mutual, unifying, and non-hierarchical?

In order for marriage to be a hierarchy based on Eph 5:22, Christian to Christian relationships also are compelled to be a hierarchy. But we know, certainly, do we not, that Eph 5:21 is suggesting no such thing. Paul certainly is not saying, after two chapters about unity in the Body, that we have authority over each other and that we have to submit each of us to the authority of another brother (or sister, I might add) who equally has authority and also must submit. What nonsense.

Do you deny that the submission in Eph 5:21 between believers exists in a new paradigm, without any authority? Do you deny that the submission of wives is of like kind? I don’t know how you could based on the text. I agree with you (and disagree with many of my compatriots here) that the Eph 5 instructions are universal. But hierarchy is not what is at all in view. I believe Paul is saying that wives in particular have a universal problem (others think it merely cultural) with the new Eph 5:21 type of submission when it comes to their husbands. But that submission is not to an authority but to an equal. That submission is not obedience but cooperation. I think wives struggle with that because of the fall and I think Paul is remedying that in his instruction. But it does not confirm that the hierarchy that was brought on by the fall is correct. In fact, Paul’s subsequent instruction to husbands, to agape their wives, remedy’s another evil from the fall – husbandly authoritarian rule. Paul is not creating or even substantiating a god ordained marital hierarchy, he is destroying the the evil hierarchy introduced at the fall.

It is tough for husbands to love. Paul says “get over it and do it”. It is tough for wives to have a submissive attitude in light of the evil that authoritarian male rule has imposed on them throughout time. Paul says “do it anyway”. What results if both spouses follow Paul’s instruction? Marriage ascends to the mysterious level of the Christ/Church relationship. Marriage goes back to what it was like in the garden, before sin tainted our behaviors and perspectives. That is why you can’t divorce this teachign from the Genesis account. Genesis 1 describes a perfectly equal relationship between husband and wife. Genesis 2 shows mutual love and submission melding two people into one flesh. Genesis 3 shows that relationship torn assunder. And what is the evidence of the rupture? Authoritarian rule of husbands over wives. What is the solution? Well, read Ephesians 5 and you will have it.