Tiffany

Cheryl RE #329 you state

“Believers are told to witness to their unbelieving husbands through their chaste and reverent behavior. Because Christ gives women freedom, it was thought that Christianity would cause women to be against their husbands, but thoughtful caring women who respected their husbands and loved Christ could soften their hearts toward Christianity.”

I would put forth that it is possible for a believing wife to submit in to an unbelieving husband because she isn’t to submit to him in matter of truth, but rather in every thing else. Obviously if their husbands hated Christianity and forbid them to be Christians they could not submit. If they told them in what manner to behave otherwise they could. It was ok for them to desire to please their husbands, to know their husbands preferences and act accordingly, to align themselves with their husbands in all things expect the nature of Ultimate truth that the husbands were denying.

you state:

“So what’s the difference? The only difference will be when there are differences of wills. If the wife submits each time and gives up her will and the husband is not given the opportunity to give up his will for her, then it is not a truly sacrificial marriage for him.”
(and later) “I agree that the husband using the trump card of taking authority over her will, will hurt both him and his wife. But it is not necessarily something gone wrong, just that God created us with different wants and likes and passions and at times these will clash when we care the most.”

I disagree with this. I think you will see quite clearly where and why when I clear up my thoughts for you regarding the oneness of Christ and the Church. But just let me say I think that it is the idea that the different wants, likes and passions clashing that would be occasion for the trump card that I see as one of the largest issues here.

You state:

“I don’t know what you mean by this. We are joined with our Lord, but we don’t disappear. I am confused by what you mean by 100/0 split oneness.”

You are quite right that when the Church (the bride) is joined with Christ (the bridegroom) we don’t disappear. But rather we will have been completely, utterly and wholly transformed to His image. It is a 100/0 split because it is Christ who has created the parameters for oneness. Unless we are completely made new in His image we can’t be one with Him. Lest you think I am suggesting we are going to be “stepford wives” -our will and intimate selfs completely destroyed without our consent,desire, or participation- I am saying nothing even remotely of the sort. But rather our love for Christ, our desire to submit fully to Him, will make it so we (our true and complete selves) couldn’t imagine not desiring everything that He desires. To give a practical example- you discuss how we will judge the angels as the bride of Christ beside our Lord in oneness. We will do this not as a 50/50 spilt where the Church and Christ discuss the options, not as a 51/49 split where we reach agreement when we can but Christ gets the ultimate say, but rather in a true and ultimate oneness of 100/0 because we will desire all that Christ desires and the Church will be incapable of judging the angels any differently than Christ will judge the angels.

Now it has been said many times by others on here that the distinction Paul is making in Eph 5 about the marital relationship representing the Church/Christ relationship is about oneness. What I am saying is that yes, it is about oneness. The sort of oneness I spoke of in the preceding paragraph. With that view in mind authority almost becomes a moot point within marriage. It is certainly there, but not in the way that egalitarians are concerned it is going to be.

I suspect this should clear up my thoughts on submission and marriage and how mutually submitting to each other (al a Eph5:21) is not exclusive of a distinctive submission talked about in the following verses between husbands and wives. It should also give a clear idea of my ideas on the place of authority in marriage. If you find it incomplete or confusing please first go back and re-read my original post as I did not restate much from that post in this one. See if we can cut down on some of the back and forth to save us all a little time. 🙂 I also suspect it will give you a lot to disagree with. Hope to be back on after the children are in bed to answer any follow up questions/disagreements.