Cheryl Schatz

Tiffany,
You said:

I would put forth that it is possible for a believing wife to submit in to an unbelieving husband because she isn’t to submit to him in matter of truth, but rather in every thing else.

I think you actually mean she doesn’t submit in matters of sin. If he wants he to stop practicing her Christian faith, that would be a matter of sin and she would never do that.

You are quite right that when the Church (the bride) is joined with Christ (the bridegroom) we don’t disappear. But rather we will have been completely, utterly and wholly transformed to His image. It is a 100/0 split because it is Christ who has created the parameters for oneness. Unless we are completely made new in His image we can’t be one with Him.

I completely disagree with this. We are to be conformed to His image so that we can be perfect. When we are then transformed into His image we become 100/100 with Christ. We are then who we were created to be in complete perfection and ready to take our place in ruling and reigning with Him. If we say that it is 100/0 then it is all Him and no transformed image in us. But because it is 100/100 we are truly a new creation fit for Him as a bride without spot and wrinkle.

If you take this view of 100/0 to the husband and wife oneness, the wife in essence would have to be absorbed to become a zero.

But rather our love for Christ, our desire to submit fully to Him, will make it so we (our true and complete selves) couldn’t imagine not desiring everything that He desires.

That is why it needs to be 100/100. A 100/0 doesn’t show an equal desire.

To give a practical example- you discuss how we will judge the angels as the bride of Christ beside our Lord in oneness. We will do this not as a 50/50 spilt where the Church and Christ discuss the options, not as a 51/49 split where we reach agreement when we can but Christ gets the ultimate say, but rather in a true and ultimate oneness of 100/0 because we will desire all that Christ desires and the Church will be incapable of judging the angels any differently than Christ will judge the angels.

Again you give a very poor example that can’t help but show one being absorbed into the borg. No, it has to be 100/100 for us to be in perfect unity.

Now it has been said many times by others on here that the distinction Paul is making in Eph 5 about the marital relationship representing the Church/Christ relationship is about oneness. What I am saying is that yes, it is about oneness. The sort of oneness I spoke of in the preceding paragraph. With that view in mind authority almost becomes a moot point within marriage. It is certainly there, but not in the way that egalitarians are concerned it is going to be.

I don’t understand. How is authority there if there is no difference of opinion?

Let’s take a look at God for example. There is no submission in the Trinity since there is no difference of opinion for one to submit to the other. I am talking about the actual Trinity now, not the incarnation.

Also in the Trinity one member does not have authority over the others since they are completely in unity.

So tell me, how does an authority manifest itself in marriage if there is unity?

I suspect this should clear up my thoughts on submission and marriage and how mutually submitting to each other (al a Eph5:21) is not exclusive of a distinctive submission talked about in the following verses between husbands and wives.

I don’t see how you can even pull out a distinct submission when there is only one word “submit” used in only one verse? If Paul had wanted to express a difference, he would have had to either use another word or reuse the word “submit” and add something to it. But he did not do that. There is a unity here with only one word used to describe each submission. To break apart one word in this passage would require one to approach the passage with a preconceived idea of differences. I am unwilling to do that.

It should also give a clear idea of my ideas on the place of authority in marriage.

No, it actually makes me more confused. I don’t see authority in the marriage relationship defined and 100/0 example honestly is too borg-like for words. I know that you must realize that since you mentioned that you might be misunderstood, but you didn’t give anything to show where a husband’s authority is practically practiced so I still don’t understand. Perhaps you can give an example of a husband taking authority over his wife where you believe it is God-given.

In comment #323 you said:

Much has been made of the idea that the mirror of the marriage of Christ and the church is about representing onessness. I am with you all on this, but I am putting forth that it is this sort of onessness and that is what the marriage relationship should reflect.

I strongly disagree that our oneness with Christ is 100/0 but is rather 100/100 so the thought that our marriage should be 100/0 makes me see the borg image where the woman is assimilated. It is a very unhealthy thought, in my opinion, and the number relationship shows that only the husband is important and she needs to become a clone of him as if he knows that is good for her. Since he is not her lord and her master, I can tell you right now that he does not know what is the best for his wife. Only the Lord Jesus knows what she needs and that is why the woman has only one Lord.

Looking forward to your further explanation.