Dave

Hey Mark! Thanks for the interaction.

Yes, my wife ought to submit to you the same as she submits to me. No this does not mean marital rights. This does not mean, however, that the submission is not reciprocal – just not identical. But then, my submission to my wife is not identical to her submission to me. Why not? Because we are different people. My needs will be different to her needs. Although Jesus submitted to us by dying on a cross, it is not expected that all of us will die on crosses as we submit to him. But it is expected that we will all take up our cross and follow him.
Is this really that hard to understand and follow.

You might find the idea of mutual submission repetitious, but I do not, especially as it is a part of growing and maturing to become like Christ. No one is suggesting that we should all be running around doing nothing but blindly washing one anothers feet whether they have dirty feet or not. True submission, as Paul describes, is doing (or not doing) what is in the best interest of the other. This means it cannot be identical for everyone – but Paul calls for it to be reciprocal.

You said, “Now therefore, submission cannot be reciprocal in all relationships. I cannot ask your wife to do something you may ask her to do. Not only that, but women are commanded to submit to their OWN husbands, not others. SO what egalitarians claim Eph 5:21 to mean is meaningless.”

Mark, you have really confused things here. You say “SUBMISSION cannot be reciprocal in all relationships” because “I cannot ask your wife to do something you may ask her to do.” But Mark, how do you go from my wife submitting to your needs to my wife having to do what you say? Oh, thats right, you think submission = ‘authority over’. BUT it doesn’t. You might ask my wife, or for that matter, another person to shoot you, but that would hardly be in your best interest – which is at the heart of the submission we are being asked to exercise – surely! A man might ask another man’s wife to sleep with him, but it is not in the best interest of either man for that woman to do it. It would not be love.

Is this really that hard to understand or follow?

Thanks Mark, 1 Peter 5 has been helpful to me, including the bits that tell me to humble myself, to be submissive and to serve, not lording it over those in the flock. What does 1 Peter teach me about authority within my church that I am missing Mark? I cannot see your point?

Mark, I will push my theology all the way, ask questions, think up situations, but I do not think my theology will crumble. I am happy for it to be tested. If I am in error I want to know.

You said, “The lines are blurred. I’d rather stick with the Bible. Women submit to THEIR husbands (not others). ALL submit to governing authorities. ALL submit to church leaders as the shephards and overseers.”

If you want to stick to the Bible I have two suggestions. Don’t forget Eph 5:21, and stop blurring submission and authority, or submission and subordination. It is not that hard to understand and follow. This might also stop your line blurring.

I suggest you read Calvin. I never thought I would say that to anyone.

By the way, I meant to say ages ago to SM, I thought you did a great job in your comments. I learnt heaps!