Peter McKenzie

Continuing on from our conversation on the other thread: https://mmoutreach.org/tg/jesus-draws-all/#comments It seems that you are engaging in circular reasoning. If we can find non-Jewish believers who are God-fearing believers who are brought to belief in Jesus, then we have an on-going giving in the same way that Jewish believers were given to Jesus. It is begging the question when you read your conclusion into the conversions of people like Lydia and Cornelius. It goes without saying that some people came to a belief in Jesus – after first having a belief in the Father. But that in no way is conclusive proof that they were given to Jesus by the Father. This is simply you reading into the passage what you need to be there. You are self-interpreting “coming to faith” as being the same as “being given by the Father”. Therein lies the circularly of your claim. I could just as easily point out the example of Paul. He was someone who believed in God and yet did not believe in Jesus. As such, he was not one who it could be said that He was given to Jesus by the Father. He was killing believers. He came to faith as the result of a direct encounter with the risen Jesus. The difference between Paul and the ones that were given to Jesus, is that they believed in God in a specific Jesus-is-the- Messiah way – whereas Paul did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. He was not someone who was given to Jesus by the Father. (I am tying my definition of “given by the Father” to the words of John 6 – and not something that it MIGHT mean if we are trying to connect some dots). Also, do you think the Roman jailer was a prior believer in God? Was he someone expecting the coming of Jesus? Or did he witness the power of God through Peter and Paul and come to a conviction of truth that caused him to ask how he might be saved? My views are solidly based on the Scripture and a refutation should have a solid base in the Scripture. In addition, a scriptural refutation should show why we should not take the Bible examples I have given as people given to believe in Jesus. Actually, your views are not based on the Scripture – rather they are based on the way that you want to read them. The passages that you quote are not talking about any kind of GIVING. They are talking about the remnant that God is going to save. Some Jewish people believed in the coming Messiah and some didn’t. Me saying that, is not denying that SOME people who had a belief priorly in God, would not believe in Jesus when they heard about him – even amongst non-Jews. You seem to have a habit of finding proof texts and then championing biblical superiority just by merely quoting them. My whole claim is based on this UNIQUE situation in John 6. I mentioned in my last comment on the other thread that there is scriptural evidence that defines this giving as a specifically limited event. John 17:6 says: I have made your name known to those whom you GAVE me from the world Despite the fact that you continue to downplay my use of the scriptures (I find that amusing because ALL I am doing is looking at the relevant text here) – this verse puts a definitive limitation on this narrative in John 6. That is my scriptural answer. You are forcing the words of THIS text in John 6:37 by trying to make them normative for all time. But, as I mentioned, it is a unique situation. Using the template of the passage, in today’s world: – we do not have a time frame where people are looking ahead to the coming of Jesus – we do not have a scenario whereby the Father is passing off His care of believing Jews to Jesus What we do have today, is the gospel going out to all people and those who respond in faith doing so because of the power of the gospel. Rather than being cared for by Jesus, we have the Holy Spirit presiding over the affairs of the church – as Jesus presides in heaven. I am not denying that Jesus is not Lord and presently reigning. But His current involvement in human affairs is completely a different affair than it was in John 6 when he walked the earth. In today’s world, we do have some Jews coming to faith. They didn’t priorly believe – and, as such, they cannot be said to have been cared for by the Father. The plain truth of the matter is that their world view is being radically altered as they come to realize that Jesus is the Messiah – having previously rejected that idea. There are so many insurmountable contradictions and road blocks that arise if you think a little more carefully about this. Finally, the SCRIPTURAL evidence for verse 37 being setting-specific and not descriptive for all time, is that it is book-ended by the use of “FOR’ at the beginning of verse 38. That link provided by John, clearly identifies the words of Jesus as having primary application to THIS situation. In other words, the giving is occurring during the time of his ministry as He did the Father’s will while he was on earth. As such, phrases such as “gives”, “comes” and “drive away” must have relevance to the conversation at hand – as a FIRST priority of the reading as we try to determine the intended meaning of the passage. Only by acknowledging that, can we then go on to try to determine if this is ALSO a universal principle that applies after Jesus ascends – which makes the “looking ahead to the coming Messiah” a moot exercise. As such, the care of the Father, as one example, takes on an entirely different nuance – as it deviates away from the definition of the term as given in the text. At this point, I would merely point out that if there is an ongoing giving today – as you point out, it cannot be supported by way of John 6, as John 6 is COMPLETELY setting specific and does not say anything about how one comes to believe in Jesus in today’s world. This is basic exegesis and I await your response – at the exegetical level.