Cheryl Schatz

Peter, You wrote: The crux of our impasse is that it seems to me that you want to consider that passages that show the role of the Father – as in the case of the Lord opening Lydia’s heart, and insist that it is conclusive proof of that as the Father giving them to Jesus. On the other hand, my view doesn’t deny that there is active involvement by God in the process of salvation. The point that I am making is that the giving shows that the people given already belong to the Father. They are believers. They have believed in what has been given to them. They have not yet heard about Jesus and they have not rejected Him. They belong to the sheep fold of the Father. And they will also belong to Jesus. It seems to me that you think that when people are given to Jesus, that they no longer belong to the Father, but that wouldn’t be right. They are not transferred from the sheep fold of the Father to the sheepfold of Jesus, but they are jointly owned. John 17:10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. You wrote: But you seem to be insisting that the one means the other. I simply am saying that there is a difference between the giving as depicted in John 6 – and God working in someone’s life to bring them to salvation. I would point out that there was no guarantee that those given in John 6, would be saved. In the exact same way that a NT God-fearing Jew can be given to Jesus, so a NT God-fearing Gentle can be given to Jesus. The qualification is belief in the light that one has been given. The guarantee is not front being “given” but from the “coming” or “believing” which is present tense – continuous. This means that the one who comes to Jesus and who continues to come to Him is the one who believes in Jesus and continues to believe in Him — this is the one who Jesus will certainly not cast out. John 6:40 reiterates that it is the one who continues to behold the Son (present tense) and the one who continues to believe (present tense) that will have eternal life. You wrote: A simple push back in this regard – is that your view seems to hold no hope for an atheist to come to faith. There is no hope that an atheist can come to faith unless the person gives up their atheism, for God has said in the book of Hebrews: Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. God said that he who comes to God MUST believe that He exists. It isn’t that there isn’t enough evidence in God. It is that a person does not want the consequences of believing in God for then they would be accountable for their sin. I choose to believe Hebrews 11:6 that there is a requirement of believing that God exists in order to come (or draw near) to Him. You wrote: One other seeming fly in your ointment: what about those deceased OT believers who believed in the coming Messiah and who would have believed in Jesus had they lived long enough to see Him? It CANNOT be said of them that they “were given to Jesus” – in that they weren’t around to allow for the process of him caring for them. The giving is not for Jesus to physically feed a person, etc, but the giving is for eternal life. You have created your own definition of what the giving is, but John 6:37-40 LINKS the giving to Jesus with eternal life. That is the proper definition. There is NO link to leading the person around the countryside, but to eternal life and resurrection for those who continue to believe in Him. And as far as those who lived long before Jesus came onto this earth, they were promised that they would be given the covenant and would be His. For example, the prophets were those who believed in the Messiah long before He walked this earth. About them it is said that the Spirit of Christ was within them predicting the upcoming suffering and glorification of Christ.: 1 Peter 1:10–11 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. The cross is a point in time, but its effects go back into the past and forward into the future. Jesus died for people who were in hell for thousands of years before He walked the earth, but He still died for them. His sacrifice goes back to those who feared God and who waited for the Christ, and it also stands as judgment against those who refused to believe God and who died before the cross. You wrote: Your argument with me here should not be on the setting which is clearly in view. Your argument is that the principle of the setting (that Jesus tells them) continues on. No. The setting is not any sort of limitation. Jesus goes from the original bread from heaven in the past which was given by the Father to the present giving out of heaven. Jesus said that the Father “gives” them bread from heaven which goes beyond the original coming down from heaven to the ongoing giving of life in Jesus. If Jesus had meant just a particular setting that He had come from heaven for only this time and this place and this people, then He would have said The Father gave you bread from heaven. But again the ongoing action of Jesus is a life-giving Spirit frames the action as ongoing, not static. You wrote: There are too many setting specific details that prevent a leap to a continued “giving” – as you suggest. Peter you seem to have a limited view of the continued gift of Jesus in this world. You seem to somehow compartamentalize Jesus in Heaven and not see His own Spirit, not the Holy Spirit, at work here on the earth. I know you had told me before that you are a Trinitarian, but do you perhaps have a different view of what the Trinity means? Does Trinity mean to you that God is one person who in the past was the Father, then was seen as Jesus on earth, and now is seen as the Holy Spirit? Please forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it seems like you are limiting Jesus in a way that makes me wonder why. As I said before, the miraculous revelation to Cornelius and to Lydia show me that they qualify as those who fear God and who are promised to belong to the LORD of hosts. Their journey is just like the Jewish believers who came before them.