Peter McKenzie

As I have ruminated on our conversation, it seems that the core of the argument comes down to the original message in verse 37. In the context of what Jesus is saying, the original hearer of the words of Jesus would have understood that He was referring specifically to OT Jewish believers who likely believed John the Baptist’s testimony of Jesus. He was the one that Moses wrote about. As such, the Father gave the care of them over to Jesus – while He walked the earth after He had been sent from heaven. The Father’s will was that He lose none of these. In verse 37, Jesus is telling these ones who have COME (physically) to him with wrong motivation (see verse 25) that whoever COMES (physically – at that time) with right motivation (they have been drawn by the Father as they have heard and learned from Him) that He will not drive away. So, if you were to ask someone after the ascension of Jesus, whether this passage had ongoing application for future believers, they would look at you with a bewildered expression on their face. They would ask you how you could come up with such a notion – as the issue had now become moot. The very fact that the whole aspect of GIVING (that was setting and set-group specific) is no longer in view. Jesus has come and been raised, so why would any of the aspects of this narrative have any application to those who put their faith in Him – AFTER THE FACT. I don’t think you are grasping the significance of this vital component. (NOTE I am not saying ALL ASPECTS of the passage here – I am only referring to the GIVING part when I say that. Obviously, there is much truth to be gained for us by reading this – but that truth is extemporaneous to any notion of ongoing giving). Also, and unrelated, you previously said that only believers get saved. This seems to be in error and is a strange notion. A believer who comes to faith in Jesus was at one time, an unbeliever. He heeded the words of Paul and Peter to the Roman jailor – “believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved…”. Moving from unbelief to belief is what saves a person.