Cheryl Schatz

Robin, I say all this to say, let’s be careful how we use Scripture. There may be other verses to support the idea that spiritually dead people are able to hear God – but this is not one of them, in my humble opinion (just a housewife who enjoys studying). I beg to disagree. Even Steven Lawson from Ligonier Ministries (RC Sproul’s organization) teaches that this verse means the spiritually dead. And they are not alone. The Word Bible Commentary which has a Calvinist interpretation, says: 25 The truth of v 24 is projected on a vast scale. The “hour” that is coming is that of the eschatological future, to which the resurrection of the dead belongs; but it has already entered the present, since the Christ who raises the dead is here. His voice sounds out (cf v 8: Ἔγειρε, “Rise”!) that the “dead” (the mass of humankind, who exist in a condition of spiritual death) may live. The eschatological future which has come into the present bursts on the world through the lifting up of the Christ and embraces the resurrection hour of vv 28–29, for the Christ-event divides and determines all ages (see Blank, Krisis, 134–43). Beasley-Murray, G. R. (2002). John (Vol. 36, pp. 76–77). Dallas: Word, Incorporated. John MacArthur, another Calvinist writes in his The MacArthur Study Bible: 5:25 hour is coming, and now is. Cf. 4:23. This phrase reveals an already/not yet tension regarding the resurrection. Those who are born again are already “spiritually” resurrected (“now is”; Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13), and yet a future physical resurrection still awaits them (“hour is coming”; 1 Cor. 15:35–54; Phil. 3:20, 21). MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1588). Nashville, TN: Word Pub. I have the Ligonier series on John 6 and they also say that John 5:25 is about the spiritually dead. You wrote: But I’d also like to point out that God has gifted his church with pastors and teachers down through the centuries, and among the godliest theologians there is a lengthy list of Calvinists. I would not say that Calvinists are not godly people or gifted. I believe that God has placed all of us in the body and that if we learned from each other, we can be as iron sharpening iron. What I see is that Calvinists point out and push us to see verses that nonCalvinists brush over. And nonCalvinists point out verses that Calvinists miss. Together we have no gaps. You said: Let’s please be kind. Calvinists are not to be equated to Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons, for pity’s sake. My two cents. My comments were to show that we should not come across as offensive. You may not have heard of the “cage stage” of new Calvinists, but I have come across more than my fill of them. They are offensive and often easily offended. They don’t want to hear anything. In my sixteen years of working with the cults in a support group for former JW’s and others, I learned that one must be respectful, willing to listen and the best way to earn the right to be listened to is to ask questions. Unfortunately cage-stage Calvinists will not listen at all to nonCalvinists and the best one can do is to plant a stone in their shoe. I had one Calvinist who pretty much told me that I was demon possessed and no matter how gentle I was in response to his anger, he kept at me. Years later he emailed me back and told me that he was over his cage-stage and he apologized to me. He said that I was always gentle and respectful even in the midst of his anger. gilliansnotebook knows about Jehovah’s Witnesses and she still needs to see that pounding a person even with the truth makes them angry and they leave. If we wish to dialog with our brothers and sisters in Christ over what we see as an error, we need to show respect, love and patience. If all we can do is to ask questions, then that may be as far as we get. God is Sovereign over all of the body, and He can take the truth of His Word and make the seed grow. I was happy to hear that you are a housewife. And that you enjoy studying Scripture. You go girl!