Peter McKenzie

Thanks for the reply Cheryl! A few thoughts: //I would add that the ones given to Jesus were all believers in the Father, whether they were Jews or Gentiles. Cornelius would be an example// I agree that Gentiles could have been given to Jesus – at least the ones that were alive when he was alive. I am not sure Cornelius could be said to have been given to Jesus – unless he came to faith prior to the arrival of Jesus – in such a way that it could be said that he was under the Father’s care at that time. I guess my point is that this idea of giving was a “physical handing over for care” type of thing. I don’t think there is a need to spiritualize anything beyond that. Re what you say about verse 37 // It is important that John 6:37 is in the present tense with the action in process or a state of being with no assessment of the action’s completion.// I think this is an interesting point. But it is noteworthy to notice that everything that is happening here is happening while Jesus is on the earth. “He has come down from heaven to do the Father’s will”. Doing His will and ministry took place on earth. So that in itself infers an end to the process of “coming” in the text – as well as “giving”. Everything that Jesus is said to be doing here can be said to be directed at specific people – with specific things being done to only them. At least that is what the observation of the text tells us. From there we can interpret and then make application for us today. When I started looking at it more carefully, I realized how much I have been conditioned to look at it through the Calvinism lens. For the record, I am NOT saying that all believers will not “be raised up on the last day”. These pre-cross believers are included as a subset of all who will be raised up. I just think it is necessary to make all these distinctions because reading the passage in its context (together with John 17) defeats the notion of the Calvinist “drawing”. Re your question about pagan nations being “drawn” by the Father, I am not really sure. Certainly, they would have the general revelation that creation provides – but is that the same as the drawing of the Father as per John 6? Perhaps, and perhaps it is overly pedantic to argue otherwise, but it seems like the John 6 drawing is particular to the Jews in view there – and that drawing is in direct relation to the fact that they “heard and learned” as per verse 45 (which would be from the OT scriptures and from John the Baptist said). So there is a direct connection between “drawing” and “coming” it seems. Drawing is about people coming and being rightly motivated in their coming. I am not sure it is about some special, mystical wooing. As far as the ones you mention, if pressed, I would likely point to the Holy Spirit for any notion of “drawing” – but that’s just my opinion. Interestingly, in the setting, if we consider the words being spoken by Jesus as having literal meanings – we can understand that “coming” has a notion of physically coming to Jesus for the purpose of following him and attempting to be his disciple. It is easy for us to read our 21st C. “come to Jesus moment” mindset into the passage. So this is an interesting exercise in dissecting this passage. Looking at it in that way, helps to make the words more that-setting-focused – and not a universal theological teaching by Jesus. That doesn’t mean we can’t make application for our day, but we should do the correct observation in order to get to the correct place. In any case, if we do allow ourselves to accept that Jesus is talking about people physically coming to Him while He walked the earth, this further locates the “drawing” as a feature that is focused on that time primarily. And don’t forget something said first had to make sense to the original hearer. Those Israelites would not have had any concept of a spiritual “coming”. Thanks again Cheryl. It was interesting to peruse your website. I seem to go after the same culprits that you do. I am fairly outspoken against the contemplative prayer movement and also against NAR. I live in Kelowna and attended a NAR church here for 18 years (an elder for 3 of those years) – so I am very familiar with it.