Cheryl Schatz

Peter, you wrote: But given the fact that He knew that many did not believe Him – it is within that context that He was not interested in unbelievers following Him around the country. He wanted those ones to go away. I see nothing of that in the text. Instead, Jesus spoke to the crowd truth about the Father’s intention and that did not include driving unbelievers away. Who is Jesus talking to in John 6:32? Who were the ones who received the bread out of heaven by Moses? Only believers? John 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. Jesus was not speaking to just believers but to unbelievers as well. The same kinds of people that were fed with the manna are given the true bread from heaven. Then Jesus said to the unbelievers: John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. Jesus did not say “there are some of you who do not believe and I want you unbelievers to be driven away from Me”. That is foreign to the passage. Notice Jesus included Judas in the group of unbelievers and Jesus did not send Judas away. Judas STAYED with Jesus. IF it was the purpose of Jesus to DRIVE AWAY the unbelievers, then the text would have said this. We would not have to guess that meaning by reading it into the text. And Judas, who was (referred to by Jesus as the one who would betray Him) would have been driven away if Jesus did not want unbelievers to follow Him. Jesus had the worst kind of unbeliever following Him, yet Jesus cared for Judas and even washed his feet! You wrote: In actual fact, he was making a judgement against them – but it was not the final judgement. The text doesn’t say this. You are saying that Jesus was not interested in having unbelievers follow Him, yet Jesus washed Judas’ feet and He told the mostly unbelieving crowd that the Father gave Jesus (the true bread from heaven) for them. I think that you have very good intentions. You are rightly dismayed that there are many who are taught that God planned an unconditional election to salvation for some people. But we must also be careful in proving our point by being fair with the text and not reading into it what is not there. It is not a matter how we FEEL that Jesus was thinking, but what the text actually says. Again, I may have missed something, but you have not yet corrected me with the inspired words and the inspired grammar. You have just told me what Jesus was thinking. That is only valid if you have the actual proof of that thinking. I think that the example of Judas totally vindicates Jesus from having the plan to deliberately DRIVE away those for whom He would shortly die on their behalf. Logically and textually, where am I wrong? You wrote: Actually, I disagree with you here. The text says that the Father’s will (the specific will as it pertained to this setting. I am not saying it is the entirety of the whole will for him) was that He lose none that had been given to him. No, that is not right. John 6:37 says it is the “one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” The grammar shows that the one who comes (present tense) is the one who believes (present tense) as the one who continues to come (continues to believe). The believer who continues to put his faith in Jesus will never (double negative) be cast out. You wrote: Remember this is a Jewish-specific passage that is not speaking about the general will of saving sinners. The Bible doesn’t say that Gentiles are saved in a different way than Jews. Are you perhaps a dispensationalist who believes that the church was not founded until after Paul was saved?