Cheryl Schatz

Peter, you wrote: He did not say that, but the words He spoke served that very purpose. Knowing the future actions of people does not mean that the actions are His intended purpose. God knows that most people will be lost but it would be illogical to say that the rejection of Jesus by the masses was His purpose. The fact is that we cannot determine a purpose outside of God’s stated will because we think His purpose changed because the response was negative. We define God’s purpose not by the actions of men, but by God’s revealed purpose throughout the Scripture. You wrote: Earlier in the passage he told those present to work for food that endures. I have written on this passage on this blog. “Work for” here means put your effort towards chasing after. It has nothing to do with earning salvation. Jesus is talking about discipleship because He is mainly talking to unbelievers. Unbelievers cannot be discipled before they are saved. I think it is possible that you are working hard to defeat Calvinism to the point that you may have missed the point in John 6. It seems to me that you are starting with a conclusion first. I start with the understanding that Jesus is teaching truth and I don’t need to explain away what appears to be clear words about salvation. I want to understand the inspired words in context because a proper understanding will never contradict other clear passages and will allow the inspired words in this passage to stand strong and powerful. You wrote: Re Judas, I would simply say that He diid believe – except his flesh go the better of him at some point, which puts him in a different class than the others. If you would say that Judas was a believer then you would come face to face with the words of Jesus that contradict that belief. Jesus called Judas a devil in John 6:70. John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Jesus didn’t say that Judas would become a devil when he betrayed Jesus. He said Judas IS a devil. Again, it is present tense and ongoing. Jesus also connects unbelief to the one who would betray Him. John 6:64 64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. Jesus did not say that a believer would betray Him. He said that Judas was a devil and continued to be a devil and as an unbeliever Judas would betray Jesus. Judas was not only a devil, but he was a practiced thief. John 12:6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it. You wrote: As well, it is entirely within the range of sound reasoning to consider that Jesus is teaching truth with a desire that some would come to believe knowing full well that any imposters would go away. Now that is different than you said before. Of course Jesus knew that impostors would go away when He claimed that He came down from heaven. However, it is entirely a different matter to know unbelievers would not believe and would walk away to saying that this is what He willed to happen. You wrote: I see that it is in the text even though it is not spelled out in exact words. I think this is where you and I differ. I want the truth so much so that I will let the exact words and exact grammar of the text convince me rather then what I bring into the text by what I “see”. When you can see Judas as a believer when Jesus called him a “devil”, I think you may very well be letting your own feelings cloud your pursuit of truth. I LOVE truth more than I love my own understanding. That is why I allow myself to be corrected. You have not yet corrected me because you have not brought out the words and grammar to correct me. And if shown that Jesus called Judas a devil in John 6, you still see him as a believer, we have a completely different foundation for our doctrine. You can’t convince me that way and you are unlikely to influence a Calvinist either. I will answer the rest of your post later as I have time.