Cheryl

Hello Peter,

Thanks for your comments. You asked why the biblical references are automatically linked to ESV. My son graciously gave me space on his site for my blog and he said he had found an add-on to automatically link to the bible. I asked him to remove the add-on. I am not really up on all these blog technical things.

It certainly is helpful when Bibles render the passages that refer to men and women in a way that we can understand. 1 Tim. 1:3 is generic to show that the false teachers can be men, women or both. Your point is well taken that 2 Tim. 2:2 “the faithful ones who are able to teach“ is also a gender generic passage.

I disagree with your point that the “certain people” from verses 3 and 6 are the same group as those of verse 19. Here is why I believe they are two separate groups of people.

1. The group of people in verses 3 and 6 are apparently false teachers who are in the congregation whereas the deceivers of verses 19 and 20 had already left the faith or were already removed from the congregation due to the seriousness of their teaching (saying that the resurrection had already happened).

2. The group of people in verses 3 and 6 are teaching myths, endless genealogies and speculations. They are not teaching outright heresy as are the two mentioned in verse 20. The fact that the teachings of the first group are also serious matters that could lead them away from God is certain because instead of following the faith some have “turned aside to fruitless discussion” Paul wants them to be instructed in the truth and stay away from the speculations.

3. The two deceivers mentioned in verse 20 are a part of the group mentioned in verse 19 which are again generic “some” showing that this group also could be men and women. However this group had rejected the faith: “which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.” Since they have rejected the faith, they were no longer in the congregation.

4. Paul does not advocate teaching to this second group of people who are deliberate deceivers. The fact that Paul says Hymenaeus and Alexander should be taught does not mean taught by the church. Paul handed them over to Satan so that Satan will be used to teach them not to blaspheme. “Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.” This is certainly nothing like the teaching that the church gives, but is more like being “raked over the coals” by the enemy so that their suffering may convince them to stop their deception and their error. Paul does not say that he has handed them over to the church to be taught. No, he says he handed them over to Satan to be taught. Again, I repeat that Paul wants the deceived ones to be taught and the deliberate deceivers he shuns them until they have learned how to stop their blasphemous ways. The deceivers are not to be tolerated in the church. Their learning is outside the church and once they stop their deception, they are welcome back.

Peter, you also said “I don’t understand point 16.” The main reference to point 16 is found in the Biblical Hebrew and Discourse Linguistics book edited by Robert D. Bergen and published by the Summer Institute of Linguistics copyright 1994. Here the grammar from Genesis 2:8, 19 is analyzed and shown as the individual verbs in 2:8 and 2:19 are intended sequentially within that account. Their point is that the creating of the garden and the creation of the animals in chapter 2 is intended as a further act of creation after Adam was created. This is clearly shown in the Apostle’s bible link that I gave. The full quotes to the Discourse Linguistics book are given in our DVD “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?”

Thank you for saying that the exegesis makes sense. At this point I believe that my exegesis makes the best sense because one must have a valid explanation for who is the “she” and who are the “they” of verse 15 to make sense of the entire passage. So far I have not read nor have I heard anyone give any viable other option to the “she” and “they” of verse 15. We cannot just ignore the grammar and the words to make sense of the passage. I have taken great pains not to ignore either.