Cheryl Schatz

bgk #54,

The carageenan in my ice cream comes from seaweed, but I don’t know if it has seeds.

Very cute!  And a mighty fine sense of humor too!

“The bible says that Adam dealt treacherously against God”  The analogy in Hosea is about transgressing.  (I predict you will disagree.)

Nope, didn’t catch this one right, but I won’t hold it against you.  The comparison in Hosea 6:7 is not just about transgressing the law but how the transgressing is done.  The entire book of Hosea is quite interesting and goes along with the theme of sinning willfully with one’s eyes wide open.  It is about spiritual adultery and the picture that God paints for us is of his own pain because of the adultery.  God tells Hosea to marry a prostitute and Hosea’s experience with Gomer and her children born from adultery is given to explain God’s pain.  The chapter and verses are a back and forth account of willful sin and God’s great love that draws him to his wife.  One set of verses are about judgment and the pain that God experiences because he has been left for another.  God has been treated as if he is unworthy to be loved, cherished and to be faithful to.  Then God speaks about how he will bring her back and how he will marry her forever (Hosea 2:19, 20).

The continuing disgust of God’s regarding the sin of his people is because they are sinning with knowledge and purposely rejecting the knowledge of God.  They have rejected knowledge (Hosea 4:6)  This is exactly what Adam did when he chose to go against what he knew to be true.  It is interesting that God says he won’t judge the wives who commit harlotry because it is the husband’s themselves who have abandoned faithfulness first.  In those days it would be forced harlotry because when a man abandoned his wife the only work available to her was harlotry.  Clearly God is judging the original perpetrator in a way that he is not judging the “victim”.  The wives have been abandandoned for other women and the perpetrators have been unfaithful:

Hos 5:7  They have dealt treacherously against the LORD, For they have borne illegitimate children…

In chapter 5 of Hosea the sin is with eyes wide open.  Who are these oneswho have deal treacherously with the LORD compared to?  They are compared to specific people – those who willfully sin by removing a landmark.

Hos 5:10  The princes of Judah have become like those who move a boundary; On them I will pour out My wrath like water.

Then we come to the disputed verse.  First of all God says:

Hos 6:6  For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

The Hebrew word that is translated “loyalty” means faithfulness and steadfastness.  God desires faithfulness from his people.  However they have been unfaithful and treacherous.  They have been unfaithful to their wives and abandoned them so that the women were forced to become prostitutes in order to live.

Then we come to Hosea 6:7

NASB Hos 6:7  But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

(Amplified)  But they, like [less-privileged] men and like Adam, have transgressed the covenant; there have they dealt faithlessly and treacherously with Me.

(ASV)  But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

(ESV)  But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

(LITV) (Literal translation)  But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant; they have acted like traitors against Me there.

(MKJV)  But, like Adam, they have broken the covenant. They have acted like traitors against Me there.

(RV)  But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

(WEB)  But they, like Adam, have broken the covenant. They were unfaithful to me, there.

(YLT)  And they, as Adam, transgressed a covenant, There they dealt treacherously against me.

Just as these men were unfaithful and treacherous to their wives, so they also treated God the same unfaithful way.  The original unfaithful one was Adam.  He sold his wife out to the serpent by being silent.  He allowed her to be taken away through deception yet he said not one word to defend her or God.  Adam knew the truth and was not deceived, yet he did nothing with his knowledge.

Now can the word “Adam” rightfully be translated “men” in this passage?  There are several things that make only the man “Adam” a fit.  First of all the Hebrew grammar is singular not plural.  Secondly the “likeness” cannot be to every man because not every human is unfaithful.  In Hosea, God is rebuking and exposing those who are unfaithful to their marriage covenant and who do their sin willfully and with knowledge of the truth.  While all “men” sin, not all are treacherous and unfaithful.  Also in the inspired words in scripture, God says “like Adam”.  He does not say “like sinful men”.  What is the comparison?  All sinners are like Ephraim and Israel?  No.  The comparison must be to a specific treacherous sin of unfaithfulness.  It cannot be generic man.  It is a single man called “Adam” and his sin is described by God as unfaithfulness and treacherous breaking of the covenant.  God created a special mate for Adam made from his own body and he gave her up to the serpent without a fight.  This is a great sin against his wife because Adam failed to protect his own flesh and blood from an attack that he recognized (remember he was not deceived).  His silence was equivalent to one who betrays their mate.  Spiritual betrayal is even more deadly than physical betrayal.  Adam was unfaithful.  Adam dealt treacherously with his own wife and with God because God is the one who gave the woman to the man.  God did not take this lightly and God punished Adam for his betrayal.

No, you are contending that the exception would have been recorded if it had been given.  Genesis was not written for the benefit of Adam and Eve.  It was written for us.

I am saying that if the exception is not recorded, then it makes God look like he is a liar since he gave permission for all seed bearing fruit to be eaten.  All scripture is written for our instruction and for our correction.  An exception to God’s word of permission (God is the faithful one who keeps his word) that is not recorded is not beneficial to us.

I didn’t know Adam and Eve needed to be justified before the fall.

No one will come to God without faith.  God’s original plan for humans is that we accept him by faith and we submit to him not by force but by free will.

I am not restricted to eating only plants with seeds.  I can eat seaweed whether it has seeds or not.  I eat meat as well.

I was talking about Adam and Eve.  God has subsequently added even more foods than he gave to the first married couple.  After Noah’s flood God added meat to our foods given us by permission.  There is more additions in the New Testament regarding what we are allowed to eat that was forbidden in the OT.  God can add permission as he wishes.  He does not take back permission without a noted exception.  For example Adam was given permission in chapter two to eat from the tree of life.  He was given permission to eat from every tree in the garden except for one.  That means that the Tree of Life was there for his consumption by permission.  Yet when Adam sinned God saw fit to remove his ability to eat from that tree so that a spiritually dead human would not physically live forever.

I say Adam (one who knew he was wrong when he ate the fruit because he was not deceived)

I think we are in agreement here.  I would add one thing.  Adam not only knew that it was wrong to eat the fruit but he knew that what the serpent was saying about God’s motives and the end result (no death) were not true.  He was not deceived.  He knew the truth yet did nothing about the truth.  Kind of like burying your treasure in the sand instead of using it for gain.

“ Adam also did not defend Eve from a spiritual attack that he identified.”  Are you saying it was his responsibility to?

Yes.

Eze 3:17  “Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me.
Eze 3:18  “When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

The one who knows the truth is always responsible to be his “brother’s keeper”.  We are all expected to be responsible for the truth that God has given us and to warn others.

Are you saying God does not lay blame on the one who Satan attacks?  All have sinned.  The wages of sin is death.

God treats the deceived and the victims differently than the deceivers and the unfaithful.  Although the wages of sin is the same, the punishment for the knowledge we have and for our motivation will be different.  God also has given himself the opportunity to step into one’s life and freely give mercy that is not deserved when one has not sinned with a “high hand”.  Paul said this well about his own situation.

1Ti 1:13  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Notice the “because” in this verse?  God does not give mercy to the unfaithful and the ones who sin with a “high hand” (sinning in such a way that it represents a hand raised as a fist in defiance to God).  In Hosea we see that God does withholds his mercy from those who are unfaithful willful sinners.  They must repent and seek God and then he can give mercy.

I am not part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and have never been.

I also have never been part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I have a special love for these lost souls who think they have the truth but who have been gravely misled.  I have dedicated my life to help teach the truth of God’s word to Jehovah’s Witnesses and ex-JW’s who hoave left the organization so that they can unravel the deception and find true faith in Christ.  This has made me very sensitive for others who have been trapped within human tradition without even knowing that they have been deceived.  I sincerely desire to speak the truth in love in just the way that I would want someone to talk to me if I was deceived and following man’s tradition.  I believe that we show our love when we give up our lives to help others find the treasure of God’s words.  I have experienced many attacks for speaking the truth in love.  It has come from the cultists and from misinformed Christians.  Yet my greatest joy is knowing that some come free in Christ and when they do, they love and appreciate me for taking the time to care about them.  I teach the word of God because I love Christ first of all.  Also I teach the Word because I love my brothers and sisters in Christ and especially those cultists who will come into the family of Christ because of some seed that I may either plant or water.  God gives the growth, but it is a special joy to be used by God to serve.

Don, I do put Genesis 1 and 2 together.  I just trust that I’m a faithful person who has arrived at a different answer.

It is especially interesting to see how easy it is to disregard the inspired words and to do a quick harmonization that leaves off some of the most breath taking lessons for us to learn.  One of the biggest for me is Genesis 2:8, 19 where the inspired grammar is not past tense but a sequential ordering of the events.  It really helped me to see the wealth of privileges that Adam got to experience before Eve came on the scene and it opened my mind up to understand more fully why Adam was not deceived yet Eve was.  God’s word is so precious and so filled with details that we often miss.

That’s about all I have time for tonight.  I hope that I was somewhat of a worthy opponent and that I gave you a few things to think about.  Have a blessed weekend 🙂