Cheryl Schatz

Don #43,

Sorry for taking so long in getting back to you.  I have had a full plate here for days 🙂

You said:

Jon 3:4  Jonah began to go into the city, going a day’s journey. And he called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

is the verse I was referring to being truncated in some sense, as it does not mention any possibility of escape.  I agree God gave them an escape.  But if you look JUST at what was said, there is no escape potential mentioned, it is just a judgment.

I can agree with you that the words were not given with an “escape door” option.  However I see it as a warning.  For example you could go to the coast and warn that a tsunami is coming.  People who heed the warning would go to higher ground.  In a similar fashion when God warns of judgment, it is a warning.  Once judgment truly falls there are no “escape doors”.  When the flood actually came the door was shut and repentance was not an option.

Would you agree with me that the words given by Jonah are a warning and not a final judgment?  If there were a final judgment they would have had to be fulfilled.  It is only because they are a serious warning that must be heeded, could we conclude that Jonah was not a false prophet.

You said:

The question is why does Mark not mention Jonah?  My solution when I got from Instone-Brewer is that Mark truncated.  If we JUST HAD MARK, we would know nothing about any sign of Jonah, so I am glad there are 4 gospels.  Truncation is invalid as an operator in Greek logic, as you lose information, but it is fine in Hebrew thinking, you are supposed to know it is possible.

I think this is valid thinking.  The question I have is why does the particular author leave it out.  In Jonah’s case it appears it is left out because he really does not want the city to repent.  In Mark’s case, could the reason that it is left off is because no unbeliever accepted the “sign” as a valid sign so to Mark it was unnecessary to mention since no unbeliever ever had the “sign” revealed to him? In essence there was no sign given to that evil generation because unbelief kept them from seeing a sign.

You said:

I agree on checking to see if the woman might be telling the truth, this is possible and is even what I want to be true. But just cuz I want something does not make it true, it remains a possibility.  Your argument that she could not simply be mistaken in what she said seems to me to be an “argument from personal incredulity” which is a weak form of argument.  It might convince some, but does not (yet) convince me.

Okay, Don, do I see some weakening happening here?  Your “yet” gives me hope 🙂

This is where my being a “confounded skeptic” comes into play.  If something is a possibility, I want evidence of that possibility.   For example in the case of Jonah it is a certain fact not just a possibility that the warning from God had the “escape door” of repentance.  We know this because this was God’s way plus Jonah was a true prophet and not a false prophet.  If there was no escape clause then the JW’s are right and Jonah was a false prophet.

So I ask, what clue or hint in scripture is there that the woman was mistaken?  I see none and I don’t think anyone has brought any evidence forward.  If I am going to judge the woman of adding to God’s words through making a mistake, I would want to have evidence.  We could make all kinds of possibilities in scripture none of which have evidence either.  We could say that this was the second time that Adam ate the fruit, once being by himself in the garden and so he ate this second time with his wife without saying anything because he was already in trouble.  Is that a possibility?  I guess it could be.  But what is the evidence?  Without evidence we have no foundation at all to consider the possibility.

The biggest reason why I do not consider this possibility is because God did not mention her error and no prophet or apostle mentioned it either.  How could such an error not rate a small comment?  Would her error teach us something?  The fact that no biblical writer comments on the possibility of her error makes an error seem impossible.

In Mark’s case we do not have Jesus’ words about the “sign” of Jonah because he apparently didn’t see it as important because no unbeliever accepted it, but we do have the others who do mention it.  It is interesting that even the Jewish leaders believed that Jesus prophesied his resurrection but they didn’t believe him, instead calling him a deceiver.

Mat 27:63  and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’
Mat 27:64  “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.”

But how could every single biblical writer have missed the first woman’s “error”?  Would it not be an important detail to point out to us?  I would think it would because it would seem to cause me at least to think that God created the woman as defective.  If the first prototype was so incompetent to even get a simple command right without being “mistaken”, then how incompetent would I be as a woman?  I am pretty far down the line from Eve.  My ability is not even close to hers and so maybe I shouldn’t even try to teach the bible even to children because surely I couldn’t get even one thing right if Eve couldn’t.  Do you see what I mean?  It breeds hopelessness and distrust in God’s ability to use women.  It makes all the bad things that hierarchists say about women’s usefulness limited to the home a reality.  Of course if that is the way that God made us, then so be it.  But is it really true?  Should I be agreeing that God made me defective?  Should I distrust my gifts and calling?  Or should I take the most honorable way to treat another human being and believe Eve until there is something that will discount her testimony?  I choose to believe the very first witness on God’s behalf.  She spoke out and was not silent.  She became deceived, but her first words as a testimony to God’s goodness and his careful warning to her should be believed.  There is no solid reason not to believe.

I hope that one day you too will believe Eve’s testimony without a nagging doubt.  I would like that.

I don’t know if I have influenced you in any way at all in anything.  You are a hard cookie to crumble.  But I like you a lot and you have been a gracious and respectful challenger.  If everyone was like you, I would have so much joy in debating and refuting and pressing for excellence in apologetics.  I still do have joy, but there are some days that the attacks of the enemy through brothers in Christ have wounded me terribly.