Dave

The only help I can offer before I scamper off to church is to say that it is a very confusing passage! I find it so, anyway.

It is great that you brought verse 8 into it and are looking at the wider context of the words. At some point I think we need to realise that Paul is talking about some cultural traditions that made sense then but not so much now.

In light of that, verses 11 and 12 are interesting as they apply to us in Christ now – Paul at this point cuts through tradition to the reality of the way things truly are. I know others can explain these verses better than I…and I have to go and toddle off to church! If nobody does answer your questions (which I find unlikely!) I will do so when I have more time.