Cheryl Schatz

Jim,

I would like to give you a special welcome to my blog. I think that it is a very brave thing for you to comment on this blog after silently following the blog for some time. Kudos to you!

I think there is great wisdom in asking these kinds of questions especially if you have baby girls. After all you want to train them up in the way that they should go so that they can serve the Lord Jesus with all their hearts. Those who have only boys will not have the same concern since the issue is not about what the boys can and cannot do so there is no worries in parenting.

I would trust that all here will be gentle with you just as we work hard to be gentle with each other.

The essence of this argument is the belief that God does Gift Women with the “Gift” of being a pastor/preacher.

That is half of the argument and even most comps will admit that there are gifted women in all areas of body life. The other half of the argument is that God is the one who determines the gifts and He alone should determine whom he does and doesn’t want to exercise the gifts. Those whom God doesn’t want to exercise these gifts will not have the gifts.

I agree with the statements to the nature of God and his nature does not include taunting or torture, however taunting and torture only take place if the gift is in fact bestowed.

I fully agree with you.

I think that we are all limited in how we can serve God, in different ways. I can never be a mother, although I have many of the “gifts” that a mother posses.

I appreciate your willingness to try to understand this issue. While we are discussing spiritual gifts “motherhood” is not considered a “spiritual” gift. It is a natural function of a woman’s body but it is like comparing apples and fence posts when comparing it to the spiritual. No list of spiritual gifts includes motherhood and no list of spiritual gifts includes any gift that is by its nature a “pink” only gift.

God expects us to live within his limits as a measure of obedience.

The question then would be, what are the “spiritual limits” of a member of the body of Christ? Where are these limits documented for the male and where are they documented for the female? I have never seen a generic spiritual “limit” on the gifts that God has given us. I may be mistaken, but I have not seen such limiting passages.

I don’t believe God gives us gifts we can’t use, I think we sometimes use the gifts he gives us inefficiently.

I am not sure what you mean by “inefficiently” but I can think of some instances where we may not use our gifts because of fear. Sometimes gifted people don’t speak up when they should.

You can list the successful female “pastors” as evidence of the gift, but the other side of that coin could be a woman who would have been even more successful if they applied their gift in a more obedient way.

This of course is one of the issues of difference between comps and egals. Egals would say that godly preaching, praying, accurate teaching of the Bible always brings glory to God. How can a woman apply her gift in a more obedient way? I think the Scripture helps us with this one. In 1 Peter 4:10, Peter talks about “each one” and using the gifts Peter says to “employ” them in a special way:

1 Peter 4:10 As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

The gifts are not for our benefit, but for the benefit of the body of Christ. We are to “serve one another” as “good stewards”. The grace of God is said to be “manifold” or “multicolored or variegated”.

The fact is that we are never told to withhold something good from another member of the body of Christ. The gifts are clearly for the entire body so that we may grow together (not separately) until we all attain to the unity of the faith. If the gifts are for all and the command is to serve “one another” with the unique flavor of our special gifts, then we dare not withhold from each other if we want to serve God with godly fear.

The next thing that we can pick up from the Scripture regarding applying the gifts in an obedient way is found in 1 Peter 4:11 is for “whoever” has the gifts. We are to use the gifts as one who speaks the very words of God and serves by the strength of God.

1 Peter 4:11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

If God says that He is glorified in this, then why should we hold back in fear?

It has nothing to do with intelligence, or abilities…it comes down to doing what The Lord Says…so I ask you, if the Lord spoke to you clearly and told you that he doesn’t want women as pastors…could you obey?

A word spoke by the Lord to me must not and cannot contradict His own Word since everything that is true spiritually will never contradict His Word. The fact is that God has never said that this one particular gift is reserved for males. If God gifts, then the person is responsible for using their gift or they will give an account of themselves before God regarding the treasure that He gave them.

My next question is how much clearer does he need to be then what he has already said?

That is a good question. I think that it would be clear if God said “I (God) will not gift women as pastors and I do not want women to aspire to the work of an overseer”

While you may think that it is clear, the fact is that there is a prejudice within all of us against women that allows single men to be pastors, elders, overseers but not women. Can you explain that? Why is the language not clear and what would God have to say that would make it more “clear” that unmarried and childless men are forbidden to strive to attain the work of an overseer or a deacon?

Pride has nearly destroyed me more than once, and knowledge of God and the bible fills us with a pride like no other.

I believe that if we seek the God whose Word we are striving to have the knowledge about from the Bible, he is able to keep us in His will as we surrender ourselves to serve instead of demanding that we are the ones who are to be perpetually served.

Being limited on how we are allowed to share that knowledge I think is not torture, it is obedience.

I believe that the limitations are not on us but on the ones that we serve. For example, my specialty is on the hard passages of scripture. In sharing my understanding the hard passages of scripture, I can go into great detail with the Greek and Hebrew and the grammar that would not be appropriate for 5 & 6 year olds and the spiritual babes. But it is my desire as it was Paul’s desire to see those whom I am privileged to serve, grow up into the knowledge of God’s word so that they can absorb and chew on the meat that I give them instead of having to be fed only milk. This is not a limitation because of my gender but because of the spiritual growth of my audience that requires me to hold back. It is not a God-forced limitation on my gifts, but an act of love that allows me to gift out as much as the young ones can take and understand. Force feeding the meat is not loving when one is acting as a servant for the good of the body.

I hope I haven’t made too many people upset, I read this blog often, I have twin baby girls, and I don’t want to “oppress” them or steer them wrong. It just seems much more a matter of giving in to him and working in his plan using his gifts, his way.

I am so glad that you are considering that what you teach your daughters may have an effect of oppression. What I have seen from so many Scriptures is that God’s gifts are not meant to be suppressed and the suppression of God’s gifts is one way to grieve the Holy Spirit. While 1 Cor. 14:31 says that “all” (not just men) may prophesy one by one so that “all” (not just women) may learn and “all” (not just women) may be exhorted, stifling this prophesying is directly tied into quenching the Holy Spirit:

1 Thess 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit;
1 Thess 5:20 do not despise prophetic utterances.

The command is that we are not to reject with scorn prophetic utterances. Can men honestly say that they do not “reject” and treat with “scorn” women’s speaking forth the words that God has given them? Men don’t see these gifts as valuable yet 1 Cor. 12:4 says that the gifts are from the same Spirit and Eph 4:12 says the gifts are for the building up of the body, not just for the building up of the arm.

While 1 Cor. 14:26 says that all the gifts are to be used for edification…

1 Cor. 14:26 …Let all things be done for edification.

…many men reject the Holy Spirit’s words when He speaks through a woman. They stop the woman from fulfilling the edification that God has called her to.

While Ephesians 4:29, 30 say that our words are to be used for edification to “those who hear”, those who will not hear what the Spirit is saying are actually grieving the Holy Spirit of God.

Eph 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I grieves me to know that males who set themselves up as gatekeepers holding back the Holy Spirit’s gifts and keeping these gifts from the benefit of other men will have to one day give an account of themselves to God. We are never told to limit other people’s gifts for the edification of the entire body. Each “servant” is to be accountable to God and we are not to interfere with their service.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Each one is personally responsible for how he builds the body and with the quality of the material that the person uses. While some have a prideful attitude that they are personally responsible to judge the work of another one of Jesus’ servants, it is not up to us to judge how another servant has used their God-given gifts as God will indeed one day judge them Himself.

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
1 Cor 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cor 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1 Cor 3:13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

I can give Scripture after Scripture commanding us to serve God with all that is within us for edification of the body yet there is no verse that universally forbids all women from receiving or using their God-given gifts. We are all to “desire earnestly to prophesy” and not to “quench the Spirit”. No Scripture in context will contradict that wise counsel from God’s Word.

Thoughts?