Cheryl Schatz

Mark,

You mention my lack of Greek exegesis on Eph 4:11. Well let me enlighten you so that we can be on the same page. The grammar of Eph 4:11 some claim follows Granville Sharpe’s rule that says when one article is used for two nouns where they are joined by and “kai”, that they refer to the same person when the nouns are persons. For example Jesus is Lord and Savior, where Lord and Savior both refers to one person – Jesus. However this doesn’t apply to Ephesians 4:11 where spiritual gifts are listed with no person listed.

There is also no “office” listed in the Greek. This is an addition to the text. Rather there are two separate gifts listed together as a close association of functions between two kinds of ministry gifts. Yet they are separate gifts as 1 Cor. 12:28 shows teachers alone without the mention of pastors.

Although some seem to want to remove the gift of teachers in Ephesians 4:11 and make the term as a adjective instead of a noun (i.e. teaching pastors), The Pillar New Testament commentary says:

it is more likely that the terms describe overlapping functions (cf. 1 Cor. 12:28–29 and Gal. 6:6, where ‘teachers’ are a distinct group). All pastors teach (since teaching is an essential part of pastoral ministry), but not all teachers are also pastors.

As far as Paul’s not listing “some” and only one “the”, Paul expressed the gifts in lists in ways that also removed numbering for some gifts and removed the word “then” from before some gifts.

1 Cor 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Notice that Paul lists “first, second, third” and then drops the numbering system. For miracles he lists “then miracles”, “then gifts of healings” and then Paul removes the “then” and just lists the gifts. Does this mean that all the gifts are now residing in one person because they are without the ordinal?

So as far as Ephesians 4:11, there is no direct evidence that Paul is referring to one person, but there is evidence that there is a connection between Pastors and Teachers and that they have a similar function. Both teach God’s Word, but a teacher does not necessarily have to have a pastoral ministry to be a teacher.

You said:

Again pointing out that a pastor is a shephard, and likewise so is an elder, what do we have here in Ephesians?

The Bible doesn’t say that an elder is a pastor. Just as someone can teach without being a teacher so an elder can do pastoring without being the gift of pastor. There is a difference between the noun pastor and the verb pastoring. They are not the same. And no where does the Scripture call an elder a pastor. An overseer may be pastor but also may not be. Sometimes God gifts Christians with multiple gifts and sometimes He does not.

You should not claim that i am noodling under an assumption of yours. I am not ‘noodling’ with the text, rather the complete opposite, being faithful to it.

It is not faithful in my opinion to disregard the gift of teacher in Ephesians 4:11. The passage does not say pastor/teacher without the conjunction. The conjunction makes the two gifts as separate even though they have a close association of functions. But to deny that a person can be a teacher in Ephesians 4:11 without that person having to be a pastor is defining away women whom you apparently deny that God can choose to gift them as pastors for the edification of the church.

You fail to correlate a shephard to an elder, thus removing Pauls teaching on eldership which has a massive bearing on any leadership discussion.

The Bible never correlates a shepherd (noun) to an elder. If doing shepherding (verb) makes one a shepherd, then teaching through prophesying must also make one a teacher. But you deny that prophesying is teaching so you have a big problem because you are inconsistent.

Also we have been talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not leadership per se. The question is whether the Holy Spirit has the freedom to gift women to be pastors or teachers or any of the other gifts if He so desires. Those who say that He cannot gift them because they are women will have a problem with denying the Sovereignty of God. God is God and we cannot tell Him who He can gift with what gift.

Now I would be interested to know whether you consider the “teacher” in 1 Cor. 12:28 to be a lesser kind of teacher than in Ephesians 4:11? If so why do you have degrees of the gift of teacher? And why would Paul list teachers as third in the list of gifts while pastor doesn’t even show up in the order of gifts?

Also why do you think that Paul said “pastors and teachers” instead of “pastor teachers” or “pastoring teachers”? Why make a distinction between the gifts if they are fully connected without distinction?

I look forward to your responses.