Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You quoted me below and then commented:

“Actually using such a term distorts the NT teachings which show that there is a common “class” of Christians. All Christians are brothers in Christ and no one can lord it over another and because leaders are to be servants, there is no such thing as “offices” which would divide the body into clergy class and laity. Christians are one class not two.”

You have a very negative attitude toward leadership it seems.

Oh? What evidence do you have from my comment above for such a statement?

But i disagree that it is unhelpful using certain terminology to explain things. What would you label elders and deacons as if you dislike the word ‘office’.

I would use the term that Paul uses ergou which means “work, task or undertaking”.

I definitely agree that leaders are to be servants though. The difference i guess is that i don’t think using the word ‘office’ negates that belief.

Why use it when we have a Biblical term to use? The term office is not there.

Also the reality is that we are all called to submit to our church leaders as men who will have to give an account.

This is Hebrews 13:17. We are to “peithesthe” those who “hegoumenois” (those who lead) which means we are to allow ourselves to be persuaded or convinced by those who lead as they will give an account to God of their leadership. (They will not give an account of us, but of their own work).

So what is your point about Hebrews 13:17? Are you willing to be persuaded by those who lead with their gifts? Do you allow them to use their gifts for your benefit and to protect you in a way that you need or do you fight their leading in their gifts and cause them grief along with no profit for you?

Hebrews 13:17…Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

You said:

Maybe you prefer the term ‘chosen ones’ rather than office :-). I have to say i disagree with you on this one. Yes there were 12 apostles chosen as the founding members of the church (Eph 2:20) but i would call this the ‘apostolic office’.

Why should we care what you call them if you are unable to prove that the Bible calls this an “office”?

The reason being there are other passages which call James and Barnabas ‘apostles’ but they were not ‘apostles’ in the same sense i mentioned above.

We can all agree that the 12 were special having been handpicked by Jesus as apostles of His resurrection and the foundation stones of the church, but to call this an “office” when the Scripture calls them apostles and witnesses of the resurrection doesn’t make sense. If we stick to what Scripture actually says we shouldn’t go wrong. When we change a work to an “office” we can become mistaken and find ourselves grieving the Holy Spirit by rejecting those whom God has called and gifted.

I’d be interested to know if you believe this gift has ceased to be given?

The special apostles who were witnesses to the resurrection will never be ongoing since Jesus is no longer showing up here on the earth in bodily form.

You quoted me below and then replied:

“Really? You pointed to Ephesians 4:11 and tied it to 1 Timothy 3:1. There is no problem with people “shepherding” but there is only one gift of “pastor”.”

You have misunderstood me and i will take the blame because i now see i didn’t explain myself clearly. What i meant was not all elders are pastors. But i do believe they both have the same responsibilty of shepharding the flock.

While you can claim that there are elders who are not to be gifted as teachers, is it not true that you believe all “teaching elders” are pastors? Therefore “teaching elder” = “pastor/teacher”?

Mark, it seems like it takes a lot of work to understand you. Do you consider yourself a gifted teacher? Are you training to be a “teaching elder” or “pastor/teacher”?