Mark

Cheryl,

You said “Also please respond to the issue that Paul raises of wanting to marry after making a pledge to Christ brings condemnation. How is it that a woman must pledge celibacy merely in order to be fed? Can you answer this?”

Now im not sure if you read my previous post, but i assume you didn’t otherwise you wouldn’t ask me this similar question. Please read what i wrote previously.

Second of all i think we are actually closer than you realise Cheryl on this passage. I am not denying that they pledged to be dedicated to Christ. In fact i support this because the passage says they are to continue in prayer and supplications. However i am also reading more than just verse 12 which extends Pauls intention to support for help aswell.

The difference though between us, is that you think this is an obscure type of ‘eldership’ or as one of your own sources made up, deaconesses. My argument is clear, the context reveals that the translation of verse 1 and 2 must be related to older women not elders. I am being consistent with the passage, you are pushing eldership into this passage when it doesn’t belong.

“Mark, you are wrong here. You have missed Paul’s point in that he isn’t saying that marriage is a condemnation for everyone but marriage is a condemnation for those who have pledged themselves to Christ in celibacy and after the pledge want to marry. It is then that Paul says that marriage brings condemnation.”

Let me repeat myself again an again. I DO NOT THINK MARRIAGE IS A CONDEMNATION!!! If you read my post and infact re-read verse 11 you will see that it is the ‘desire’ which disregards Christ not the marriage. The marriage is just the by-product of the sinful motive beforehand. I’m surprised you keep overlooking this important point. Like anything it is the motive of the heart that causes problems. Thus once the sinful desire disregards Christ, they get married and then cause condemnation upon themselves. Until you actually look closer at this verse you will keep having the issue of trying to balance ‘condemnation’ and the ‘pledge’. But it doesn’t really surprise me because of course you will look for any passage to seemingly support the egalitarian position.

So Cheryl before you ask me to again justify my position can you please read what i have already written. Im sure it will help us all.

Finally you quoted “The Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament calls this the “office of widow”.

Are you serious? You criticise me all this time for using the term ‘office’ and then use this when it supposedly supports your view. Please be consistent and not critique me if you are going to use the same term ‘office’

“Now I would like to challenge you to show that these are now widows in service to Jesus and the Church but merely on the “roll” for feeding.”

As i said above. I answered this in another post. But just so you know i don’t deny they are in service. They are to continue in supplications and prayers day and night, i have said this several times. I just don’t believe there is an office of over 60 women elders who are to shepherd the church. Also considering the rest of the context regarding older/younger women aswell as the numerous verses talking about support and caring and burdened, i also believe the enrolment involves support. Please tell me why you are ignoring these very clear verses talking about caring for people and think it has nothing to do with the list.