Thanks, Elaine. By the way, the purchase of my name as domain names was solely to create an opportunity to stop people from being influenced by my material by trying to discredit me as an evil person. I never thought about buying my own name to try to defend myself. What I have done here for years should stand the test for anyone willing to check out an evil report.

I too think that what happened to me was bizarre. It spoke volumes to me about who I was dealing with and so I have chosen to keep going with the gifts that God has given me and to stay away from those who are trouble.

LRC,
Thanks for your comments and welcome to my blog!

Dejablue,
The situation with a female who takes authority over the entire discussion board, including taking authority over men on a complementarian site, was an anomaly that many people pointed out during the time I visited the board. The response was that the board and the ministry is not a church and therefore they can do as they like. Also the rules on the board don’t apply to the “management” and the rules can be bent or broken as they wish. Many call that hypocrisy, but when you have the ability to make to break the rules as you wish, it isn’t likely that those ruling the board either see that or care.

Retha,
I agree. We are all going to give account of our lives and for some people, I really fear for them. This kind of behavior isn’t a game.

Mara,
Thanks for the link on your post.

The thing that really gets me is how can people emotionally handle the hatred that they dish out and still call themselves Christian? I know that God has called us to love our brothers and sisters in Christ and the fruit of hatred is so far off the fruit of a Christian, that it bothers me how anyone can claim to know the Lord and hate their brother. I think that what I have been through, I could have feelings of hate, but I don’t. I know that the Lord Jesus is Sovereign and He gives strength to handle “Job” experiences. I also believe that He is able to take every experience and bring amazing good out of it, so it just makes my trust in the Lord so much greater. We really can bring praise to the Lord through and in all things!

Frank,
Thanks for the kind words! When all of this “stuff” was going on, it was very discouraging but I was quite naive because I had not seen someone act this way before, and I was hoping that common sense would rule. I am thankful to the Lord that I am no longer so naive. When I come across a person who displays the character traits that I saw in my accuser, I move on. For that lesson, I am grateful. In this case, trying to be nice only got more abuse.

But God really is good! I have lots of compassion for those who are hurting and I even have a lot of compassion for those who are fighting women in ministry because they think the Scriptures mandate the silence. That compassion allows me to treat these people like human beings. If they are willing to communicate, even if they are angry, I don’t have a problem. I do have problems if they lie to me and are deceptive. But if people are attacking what they don’t understand, but they are willing to fight it out and be reasonable, I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt and I try to help them with arguments that made a difference in my own life.

For those whose only business is to persecute me, I don’t go and bother them or mock them back. God will deal with them and I can even have a hand by praying for them. And I do believe that there is a reward for enduring persecution. God is honorable and He pays attention.

I don’t see any place that God called the woman as “the human” but that doesn’t mean that she was not “man” as in “human”.

Also the name of mankind was “man” but God never called Adam simply “man”. He always called him “the man” as a definite human.

Here are a couple more:
Isaiah 41:21 (NASB95)
21“Present your case,” the LORD says. “Bring forward your strong arguments,” The King of Jacob says.

Isaiah 44:6 (NASB95)
6“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

TL,

Here is one scripture:

Isaiah 43:15 (NASB95)
15“I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.”

Thanks, TL. I fixed up the link for you also.

Sally, welcome to my blog!

Clyde,
Welcome to my blog! I am sure that many others will be blessed to meet you here too.

I am aware of the Jewish myth about the androgynous creation and you gave a good response to that. I am also aware that the Jew had a few other myths that went beyond the Scriptures (one comes to mind about Adam’s first wife Lilith). It is a good reminder that we need to test all things and to hold fast to what is good and true.

Thank you so much for your kind words about my work! It has been a tough road and we have faced much opposition from those who are afraid that my work is too persuasive and will take people away from their complementarian camp. My response is that the work, in fact anyone’s work, needs to be tested by the Scriptures. If it aligns with the Scriptures in context then the message should be embraced and the women that God has called into service should be released to go as their Lord and Master has called them.

I am working on another post for this blog in between working on our newsletter and fighting a bad cold so I may not be as fast as I would like, but this blog has my heart especially for the great people who show up here and comment.

Excellent comment, Frank!

Heidi,
Welcome to my blog! Thanks for your good comments.

Dejablue, that is actually the conflict with characters in the book that I am writing. That is if I ever have the time to finish it. Unfortunately it has taken a back burner to the DVD project I am working on, but eventually…God willing, it will get done.

gengwall,
One does not need a scripture when you have a magisterium. But that is a great question that I will have to remember! It may cause those who respect the Bible to see that their authority has set aside the Bible to allow a group of men the right and authority to decide what God meant but didn’t write down.

Dejablue,
Welcome to my blog!

I don’t think that complementarians have an official full list, although a partial list has been published by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. CBMW regularly receives questions regarding what a woman can or cannot do and they provide their wisdom to the commoners who haven’t been able to find the proper restrictions in the Bible. Apparently only CBMW is privy to the master list-maker and they mediate each new minute restriction to comp pastors who pass the restrictions onto their own faithful followers. Can CBMW can the rules at whim? I think they can and do as long as the rules get more restrictive rather than less.

I agree with you that what God intended by woman’s creation from the man, is twisted beyond recognition with these folks. What you have stated makes full sense to me.

I think this Scripture is the clearest:

1 Peter 1:18–20 (NASB95)
18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
20For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

The correct term would be “foreknown”.

I am not sure if I understand you quite yet, Kristen. Do you mean that the Word of God before the creation of the world was designated to become the Christ (this I can agree with) or that the Word, who is pure Spirit, already was the Christ, the kinsman Redeemer, merely by the giving of a title, rather than the actual taking on of the kinsman Redeemer’s flesh? If this is what you believe, do you have a verse that says the title was given before creation to God? Or is this just something you believe in yourself without any clear verse stating as such? If it is the latter and you don’t have a verse that says God the Word took on a title of the Seed before creation and before incarnation, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and put this one to rest.

Kristen,
Yes, I see that we will have to agree to disagree, but that’s okay. There will come a time when we will all agree to everything, but it isn’t quite yet.

You said:

“Lamb Who was slain” is part and parcel of what it means to be the Christ.

I agree. That is why I believe this has to be the Word made flesh and cannot be about the Word as Spirit alone. The Spirit cannot die. This is why the Word HAD to be made flesh so He could become our Kinsman Redeemer and sacrifice Himself. The Lamb is a human who was sacrificed on our behalf.

You also said:

I also think that “all things” in Col 1:15 and 1 Cor. 8:6 probably means “all things”

I agree it means all things in Col 1:15. But the term “Christ” is not used in that passage. The term “Christ” IS used in 1 Cor. 8:6 but it is present tense not past.

I think the weakness of your position is implying that the Spirit (who is called the Word) is said to have died. I think that opens a can of worms about what was resurrected – a Spirit?

Thanks for sharing your position and I am sure it gives us all something to think about and wrestle through. Who knows who both could be wrong in our positions and may need to be corrected in the future. I leave myself open to that.

pinklight,
I think your question is a very interesting one. I guess you could say that Solomon squeezed out a second testimony from the ladies and only the true mother would have confirmed her true first testimony with a response that gave first priority to the welfare of the child. Good observation!

gengwall,

BTW – thanks for being gentle with my nagging questions.

You are welcome and thanks for asking questions that are important to you. I like to be prodded for answers as it also stretches me and you have been one who surely has stretched me!

Sorry for being so slow, Kristen. I have been neck-deep into the Scriptures for the next DVD that I am working on and there are times that I have to stay in that context until I have a section done.

34 Kristen,

Thanks again for your participation. You have worked hard to try to provide good answers.

You said:

God is the “head of Christ”in 1 Cor. 11:3 because God is the source/origin of Christ. Col 1:15 – “He is the image of the invisible God.”

Yes, I agree, but I do think that we could not use the term “Christ” here to refer to anything other than the flesh since the Spirit has no origin. The Word is eternal with no beginning.

Christ is the “head of man” in 1 Cor. 11:3 because Christ is the source/origin of man. He already bore the title “Christ” at the creation (because in divine anticipation He was “slain from the foundation of the world”) when all things were made by Him, to exist through Him, according to 1 Cor. 8:6.

The problem you have here is that the Bible never calls the Word (Spirit) as Christ and the grammar in 1 Cor. 8:6 is present tense not past tense. The verb comes from verse 5 which is present tense in both instances “are” not “was”.

“The man” (meaning Adam) is the “head of woman” in 1 Cor. 11:3 because Adam was the source/origin of the woman, when the woman was taken out of Adam. But verse 12 says that just as the woman originated from the first man, so also man now originates from woman (in childbirth), and God is the source/origin of all things.

Excellent!

The husbands is “head of the wife” in Eph. 5:23 because the husband was the source of provision for the wife. But the husband is not the “head of the wife” as source/origin in the same way as “man is the head of woman” in 1 Cor 11:3.

I agree. Good job!

But I think it’s a mistake to say the Son did not become the Christ till the incarnation. When we do that, we negate “slain from the foundation of the world,” and we render 1 Cor. 11:3 un-interpretable as being about origins (which the context supplied by verse 12 makes clear is the case).

The term used is the “lamb” which was slain from the foundation of the world. It doesn’t say “Christ”.

Revelation 13:8 (ISV)
All those living on earth will worship it, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life belonging to the lamb that was slaughtered from the foundation of the world.

33 Kristen,

You said:

However, to say that He only became the Christ when He was incarnated, causes the exact problem Gengwall raised. Once you do that, “head” as “source/origin” in 1 Cor. 11 no longer makes sense. If He was not yet the Christ when humans were created, then Christ cannot be “the head of man.”

This is why I stated that the resurrected Christ can go back in time and I believe that it is the resurrected man that walked with Abraham. If this can happen, and if indeed the resurrected Christ who is a life-giving Spirit could have breathed into Adam and given him life. Is this impossible? I don’t think so. If it is impossible, maybe you could tell me why it is impossible. I think that Paul used his words deliberately and he used Christ here for a reason. I do admit that it is a hard saying, but then Paul was used to giving out hard sayings.

Thanks for working with me on this one, it is good to banter back and forth and push each other for answers. I think it really stretches us and it is what I love about the “tool” that we have on this blog. I certainly don’t mind being challenged at all, and you ask great questions!

32 Kristen,

You said:

So it does make sense to say, as Paul does in Col. 1:15-16 and 1 Cor. 8:6, that all things were made by and through the Christ. He had that title before He was incarnated, though He had to be incarnated in order to fulfill the role that the title anticipated.

Col 1:15, 16 doesn’t use the term “Christ”. 1 Cor. 8:6 does use the term but the grammar is present tense so it would be proper to use the term Christ for the present.

The only reference that I can find for a name that existed in the past for the Spirit who was the Word is in Job.

Job 19:25 (NASB95)
25“As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.

Here the Hebrew term Goel is what is translated as Redeemer and it can have several meanings including kinsman Redeemer and a term used for God who redeems Israel out of slavery. Job gives his testimony that he knows his Redeemer lives and will stand on the earth in the future. This standing on the earth would be in the flesh.

Kristen, sorry for being slow. It has been a busy time for me. I will get back to you as soon as I can, probably will be later this week.

gengwall,
From Colossians we can understand that anything that has been created has been created by the Word. The Word Himself was not created so He is in the category of Creator and all else is in the category of created.

Then the Word became flesh. The flesh is the Christ. The Word did not cease to be the Word when He became the Christ. He is and always was the Word – God Himself. The flesh, the man Jesus, had a beginning in the womb of Mary, even though He has always existed in the Spirit as the Word.

So how do we see these things as far as the Christ and creation, not just as the Spirit who is the Word? This is stretching me as well. All things were created by the Word. But is it possible that after creation, the resurrected Jesus breathed life into Adam? He, the physical man, is said to have “become” a life-giving spirit. He gives life to the world. If He is the one who gave life to the very first man by breathing life into him, then He would be the origin of life in man.

gengwall,

There are 2 Scriptures that are interesting to see together:

Genesis 2:7 (NASB95)
7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

and

1 Corinthians 15:45 (NASB95)
45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The first Adam “became a living soul” when God breathed into him.

The last Adam when He was incarnated “became a life-giving spirit”. This is one “in the flesh” who was the life-giver. The Greek term for life-giving is zoopoio which means to make life or sustain life. He is the one who gives life and who sustains life. Who is the one who walked with Adam and breathed life into him? Do you think that it is possible that Paul and the author of Hebrews saw this life-giver as the resurrected Christ? The one who’s death was said to be from before the foundation of the world? This is something to think about for sure.