Craig,
You said:

2. Also, as far as I am aware, 1 Tim 1:3 uses the Greek term for people, not just men.

You are correct that the Bible uses the term tis meaning anyone. The actual grammar of this word is masculine but this is the default grammar just as all passages speaking about salvation where “any man” follows Christ, all of these passages are generic but with the masculine grammar. This does not mean that only men can be saved and only men can follow Christ or only men were false teachers. It is rather a generic term meaning people just as you thought.

@118 Holly,
You said:

Cheryl… I am still studying and searching all these things out for myself, but I want you to know that I am so blessed to have come across this website, and to be learning about the egal view of Scripture. I’m so glad God has called you in this way, and that my own personal circumstances have pushed me into searching for answers so that I have been able share them with my parents, all the rest of my siblings/family and my brothers and sisters in Christ.

When I read your testimony and that of your mother I was very touched. I find myself choked up with tears by hearing from people who have been helped by this message. It has been a hard road for me and I have experienced my share of persecution for publicly giving the message about God’s freedom for His women. Previously I had been naive enough to think that most would want to hear the message, but when the persecution started to happen against me personally, I was shocked. I don’t think I could have kept going if I had not been called by God because when God calls, He strengthens and enables. Without Him we can do nothing. God has enabled me and empowered me to suffer for His name and for His body and this has really made me grow up as persecution often does. But whenever I hear a story of someone who has been helped by a small thing I have done I feel so privileged to serve. Thank you for sharing!

@116 Holly,
You said:

I agree that there are examples within Scripture of women being used by God in different ways, but unfortunately I’ve always been taught that this was God’s exception to His rules.

The question comes to mind, if there is an exception, is there really a rule? In other words, sometimes it is a sin and sometimes it is not? That doesn’t appear to be the way God is because it would be condoning sin. It seems to me that it is the tradition of men that needs an excuse to explain why God uses women when they don’t think he should.

I’m wondering why he wouldn’t have had to address the issue of women teaching and learning in a public setting much the same way. In 1 Tim 2 we do see Paul letting a woman learn, but this example is within the bounds of husband/wife relationship, not seemingly in a “public” church setting.

I do believe that the teaching that the woman of verse 12 did with the man was private and not public, but I also believe that her learning in verse 11 (which is giving the solution before the problem is even mentioned) is to be public within the body of Christ.

If we see the church “service” as a glorified home Bible study with praise and worship, not like today’s mega church with performers and one man shows that leave no opening for the majority to use any of their gifts in worship and service, then it is easy to see how natural it would be to have a home environment that would allow each person to freely share their gifts. If a woman could freely prophesy in the service of the body, then how hard would it be to accept her other gifts?

@gengwall #140,

You said:

The confusing point is the final use of the plural “they” in vs. 15. Those who believe that the passage is about all women and their conduct in the congregation see “they” as confirmation that the passage has been talking about women all along. But that makes jibberish out of the use of “a woman” and “the woman” and “she” that have preceeded “they”. Logically, “they” has only two possibilities: the entire congregation (who should continue in faith love and holiness to benefit the fallen woman and aid her restoration) or the small set of people intimately involved in the problem – the woman and her husband.

This sounds very logical. The problem that I see in having “they” refer to the entire congregation is that it has to refer back to the original noun. Where is the “congregation” listed where “they” can be referred back to? Paul talks about women dressing a certain way and men praying a certain way, but nothing about the congregation as a whole. And then we would have to pass by the very first logical “they” which is “a man” and “a woman” from verse 12. I think that the natural way is to take the very first “they” category that fits the bill and use it.

I originally was inclined to believe the former but now have more confidence that it is the latter after discussing this for over a year now on this blog. But either way, what is absolutely clear is that “the woman” of vss. 14 and 15 is the very same woman in vss. 11 and 12. Logically and gramatically that is the only conclusion that the text supports.

I am so happy that we were able to “reason from the Scriptures” together on this blog. I think that you have paid close attention to the reasons why things don’t fit and you thought carefully on this issue. You are an example of a good Berean and I am so very happy that you are one who comes here and dialogs with gentleness and respect!

Holly,
Also we do not need for God to specifically mention women unless there is a specific prohibition for them. All are assumed to have freedom unless the Bible takes away that freedom calling it sin. For example the Bible doesn’t say specially that women are allowed to eat the communion meal. We are to assume that all are allowed to participate regardless of gender unless there is a prohibition that is specifically given. For some reason we have it backwards when it comes to women. I think this is because of the natural prejudice that many men have towards women. For them (and for us who have been taught this through tradition) we assume that women can do nothing except for what has been given specifically for them permission to do. Men on the other hand are allowed to do anything except for what has been specifically set up for them as a prohibition.

So if we take our minds away from this prejudiced way of understanding women, we should not have to hear any Biblical writer say that women are allowed to _____ (fill in the blank), as all are allowed to do good and righteous things and only forbidden by what is unlawful for them by the set law of God.

Holly to continue,
You said:

If not wearing a veil would have culturally caused such shame to the woman’s husband (1 Cor 11), then surely a woman teaching a man would also have caused the same cultural status of shame?

Although the culture said that a man was not to talk to a woman, off the bat I can’t think of any reference to a “shame” of having a woman teach him. And removing the veil was in a far different category. Removing the veil was a cultural sign of indecency about the same as lifting up her dress and showing off…ahem….well, showing off her private parts. The Talmud says that teaching your daughters the Torah is a shame, it doesn’t say that having a woman teach a man is a shame. After all most of their women didn’t have enough education to teach the men so it wasn’t even on their radar to think that way.

Are there any Scriptures that specifically say “let a woman teach”?

The Bible specifically commands those who have been gifted to use their gift:

1 Peter 4:10–11 (NAS)
10 As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

In essence these verses are saying that “let every man or woman who is gifted use their gift so that God will be glorified in them”. Should woman who are gifted by God to teach, teach and not be prejudiced against men by withholding God’s gifts from them? Absolutely! The gifts aren’t ours. They belong to God as a gift to the church. When we don’t use our gifts and we withhold God’s gifts from some people because of their gender, God’s gifts are held back in prejudice rather than allowing God to choose whom He wants to gift. God’s gifts are meant for the church as those who have been gifted have no right to without what God has given.

@Holly #110,
You asked,

Given the cultural barring of women from learning or speaking to men in public, why do we assume that women teachers are included within the deceived teachers of 1 Tim 1?

We can assume that at least one woman was among the deceived teachers in 1 Timothy 1 because Paul specifically sets out to stop “a woman” from teaching “a man” in chapter 2. When we understand that nowhere did Paul ever tell Timothy to stop the godly teachers from teaching the truth, we can assume that in the context of deception, that the teaching that was stopped in chapter 2 was deception. Would it seem reasonable that Paul was stopping the teaching of truth? That can’t be because when there were some who were teaching the truth of the gospel but their motives were bad, Paul didn’t stop them from preaching the gospel but rejoiced that the gospel was preached even if through impure motives.

Philippians 1:15–18 (NAS)
15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will;
16 the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel;
17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment.
18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice.
Yes, and I will rejoice,

If Paul would not stop those who were preaching the gospel in order to hurt him, then why would he stop the preaching of the gospel by a woman? The evidence is clear in Paul’s character and habits that he did not stop the preaching of the truth by anyone. He only stopped error and deception.

@ Elastigirl #107,
I too am amazed at the gentleness of the men who come here. I am totally blessed by the men who are much more interested in truth than they are in holding a male privilege and who are willing to walk through these issues with us in a respectful and uplifting way! There are many forums where you could find a man who would be willing to speak out for his sisters in Christ, but here for some reason God has really blessed us with brothers in Christ who are truly brothers. Thanks for asking the question you did of them about why they are looking into this issue. I was pleased to read their comments too.

I am going to start today with a couple of the last questions at then work my way back.

Craig,
You said:

If v11-15 are not about church meetings at all, and it is all about what is going on at home, then who is the woman to learn from- only from her husband. I had assumed she possibly attended the church gatherings, had some interest in Christian things, but was deceived in certain things and not yet a Christian.

The previous verses would have been concerning public service of women as Paul isn’t telling women what they should wear in the privacy of their own home. But the sudden shift from plural to singular is the key to understand that Paul is going from general to particular and we will need to note what the context is regarding the forbidden actions.

We can assume that the woman has attended Christian meetings since her deception was not about how to make money or how to raise children, but like that of all the other deceived teachers, her deception would be a perversion of Christian teachings concerning myths, endless genealogies and the law (1 Tim. 1:4, 7) . We know for sure that Paul did not instruct Timothy to stop the teaching of the truth, so the teaching that is being restricted would not be truthful, godly or Christian.

Secondly we can know that her husband was a Christian since Paul only appears concerned about the salvation of “she” not “they”. Note that “she will be saved….if…” Some have speculated that her husband was one of the leaders at Ephesus. That certainly is a possibility. And it may be why she had come to the attention of Paul and Timothy if one of the leaders had repeated what she had spoken to him in private. If he was a leader and not doing anything about her deception, it would give a false message to the body that this kind of teaching was not in error or that it was not so bad.

However Timothy came to know about the situation, both he and Paul were familiar with the problem.

Does it seem strange that Paul would not see the role of the whole body in helping this woman? The responsibility for teaching her lies with just her husband at home?

I do believe that Paul sees the whole body as a help to this woman. In verse 11, the implication is that she should take the stance of a disciple and this discipleship would be in the presence of and under the supervision of God’s gifted teachers. That is body ministry.

I don’t see the husband’s responsibility as teaching her so much as bringing her to the place of submission to the teaching and to the church’s teachers so that she can unlearn the false the relearn the truth. He is necessary as a facilitator and an incentive to stay into the light of God’s word. It is the church itself who will teach her. But if he allows her to stray without correction and without encouragement to stay with the revealed word of God, she may not come out of her deception.

Or are you saying she is totally outside the church. If so, why would she accept the apostle Paul telling her what to do?

That is a great question! I don’t think that she is totally outside the church, but I think that she has been influenced outside the church in her deception. As far as accepting the apostle Paul’s telling her what to do, I don’t think that she would listen if it were not for her husband also going along with the instruction given by Timothy. I believe this is why Paul says that “she will be saved…if they continue…” Her husband is going to be key to helping her have an incentive to learn. He is also going to be key to helping her stay away from error and to respect the wisdom of the godly leaders and the instruction of Paul. He is also going to be key in stopping his silence. For her sake he must speak out about the deception and help his wife. Without that partnership she is in trouble for she truly believes she has the truth. I believe that verse 15 holds many keys to our understanding of the passage.

1. There is only a concern about salvation for “she” not for the man.
2. Her salvation is going to depend on his partnering with her in the truth as there is a condition of “they” have a continuing walk in the truth.
3. Self control is a key to her salvation and this is where he can help her to stay within the boundaries of orthodoxy.
4. Spiritual deception is no automatic death sentence if one can have help in exiting the deception that has taken over one’s mind and soul. Paul’s statement that she “will” be saved is a positive belief that her husband’s cooperation and the resources of the church will bring her to the foot of the cross. And God is more than able to take what was meant for evil by our common enemy and turn it around for good. After all the “childbearing” (definite noun) that came into the world through the very first deceived woman was God’s amazing ability to bring triumph out of a situation that looked bleak and hopeless. God specializes in taking the ones whom the enemy has deceived and uses them to remove victims from the kingdom of darkness once they have been set free.

Craig @103
You said:

I can see the context of false teaching in ch1 and 2 and clearly relate this to 2:11-15. Your argument from v14,15 concerning a particular woman and man seems conclusive to me.
How would you relate 3:14,15 to 2:11-15?

I would relate 1 Timothy 3:14, 15 first of all back to chapter 1 verse 3. Timothy was left behind to stop the false teaching and the false teachers. The topic of deception is a major topic in 1 Timothy and Paul is concerned that he may be delayed in coming to Timothy’s aid and so he writes his instructions to Timothy so that he has them in case Paul is delayed. So Paul’s instructions are specifically to Timothy regarding situations in Ephesus which Paul had the intention of coming to help Timothy deal with regarding deception.

In 1 Timothy 3:15 Paul says that if he is delayed he has this letter so that “you” (Timothy) may know how to conduct himself (literally “yourself” singular) in the house of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

If the church is the pillar and ground of the truth, then this is the “hospital” where the “sick” (deceived) people are to get well. Deceived people need to learn the truth and the mature people in the church need to facilitate healing.

Notice that Paul didn’t say that he is writing so that “you” (plural) will know how to conduct yourselves. He said that he wrote so that Timothy may know how to conduct himself. With the instructions from the letter, Timothy should be able to understand that he is to make sure that the woman of verses 11 & 12 of chapter 2 is to learn and stop her private teaching. Timothy should also be aware that he is to command and teach that the living God is the Savior of all men (1 Tim. 4:10, 11) and thus Timothy is to teach that those who have been deceived are also able to be saved. It doesn’t appear that any of the leadership of Ephesus was doing anything to help the woman of 1 Timothy 2:11, 12 and it is possible that they believed that the deceived are not able to be saved. Timothy is to correct this mindset and Paul has encouraged Timothy to believe that even the one difficult case of the special false teacher who is a woman will result in her salvation with someone walking alongside her in the faith.

Timothy is also encouraged that in the body of Christ, he is not to let anyone look down on his youth. While he will be referring back to Paul’s will in the situation (Paul saying I am not allowing…) Timothy will still be acting in Christian maturity and no one should despise his mature actions in spite of his young age. Thus Timothy is to be an example to the believers in word, in conduct and in love (1 Tim 4:12).

Timothy is to conduct himself in the body of Christ by feeding the body who desperately needs the milk and meat of the Word to combat deception (1 Tim. 4:13) and Timothy is also to give of his special gift and give himself entirely to the body (1 Tim. 4:14, 15). Timothy is also supposed to pay attention to doctrine and to continue on this road for doing so will ensure salvation for himself and for all those who will hear him:

1 Timothy 4:16 (NAS)
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Paul’s encouragement to Timothy regarding Paul’s instructions to him regarding the body of Christ and those who desperately need salvation because of their deception, keeps coming up again and again. It relates to the false deceived teachers of chapter 1 and to the specific problem teacher in chapter 2.

Unfortunately some have seen chapter 3 as a church manual telling all of us how we are to act in the church. Those who hold to this understanding have forgotten who the letter was written to and Paul’s specific inspired words that are in the singular not the plural in 1 Tim. 3:15. While we can learn a whole bunch of good truth in the book of 1 Timothy, we must understand that it was specifically written to Timothy and when people fail to realize this and they make universal applicatiosn out of this letter when Paul is giving specific instructions to Timothy about a specific situation in Ephesus, they open themselves up to confusion and bad doctrine that stifles and holds back God’s women.

Craig, I hope that I have answered this one the way that you need to hear it. If I have miss judged your question, please feel free to poke and prod until you get what you need.

It is important to remember for all here that questions are welcome on this blog and there are no stupid questions. In fact your questions help me to learn and understand where I need to dig deeper myself and say things that way others need to hear answers so that they too can understand.

Well, that was a longer answer than I anticipated. I will have to leave the rest of the comments until tomorrow. My mind is falling asleep fast. Getting older really is a pain.

Hi Guys and Gals,
Thanks for your patience with me. I can see that I am really behind in my answers and hopefully I can catch up tomorrow. I will try to catch a few tonight before I go to bed. I used to be able to stay up late and answer in the wee hours of the morning, but with the physical labor I am tired and my mind isn’t working well with tired.

Here is where I have been:

Well actually this is a picture of my husband’s foot through the foundation of our basement. The new addition of ministry office and studio will be lower than the house so that we can have extra high ceilings. That means that the plumbing needed to come out and be replaced with the new pipe going under the footings. We can do the plumbing ourselves to save money. But it is dirty work and I had to spend my time in the foundation “hole” too. I was dreaming last night about mice getting into the house. Thankfully that part is now done and the hole boarded up and set for cement tomorrow.

Okay, now on to the questions.

PS I could go through this passage verse by verse to show how it all is connected to the deceived lost people, but I don’t have time right now. Craig, see what you can do with the passage first and then push me for wherever you are stuck.

Craig,
You said:

He views the context from 2:1 to 3:16 as all about the church gathering (3:15). He thinks that a private matter between husband and wife in 2:11-15 would not fit the context.

The context of 1 Timothy goes beyond chapter 2. The context that is highly important to understand is the very reason that Timothy was left behind in Ephesus.

1 Timothy 1:3 (NKJV) As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

The rest of 1 Timothy has to be understood within the key reason that Timothy was left behind. If you read through chapters 1 & 2 thinking about what Timothy was left behind to do, the passage will start to open up.

The key then is not public vs private teaching but it is false teaching done by deceived teachers. This means that even private teaching is worthy of saving the deceived teachers from their deception. And having a single woman teaching a single man makes sense of verse 15. Without a single “woman”, the grammar of verse 15 “she” and “they” makes no sense at all.

So don’t let him make you think that the issue of 1 Timothy is about public worship. The issue is about deception, false teaching and knowing that Jesus died even for those who have been teaching error through their deception (1 Timothy 2:4) There is hope for these deceived lost people!

Happy Belated Birthday Pastor Dave! And a graphic just for you:

Dave @90,
Sorry that your comment didn’t get posted right away. I just noticed it in my spam box. Not sure how it got there, but I can vouch for you. You are certainly not spam! 😉

Holly,
You said:

I’m sure though that more questions will come to mind as I continue studying. Thank you for your gracious willingness to give of your time and wisdom. Much appreciated!

You are so welcome! I sincerely believe that teaching should be able to be challenged and that there are no stupid questions. I do not claim to have all the answers but I should be willing to work hard to find answers to things that I publicly teach. Paul was happy to have his own teaching tested by God’s Word. I too believe that it is a good thing to test what I teach for if I am wrong, I can be corrected and if what I say stands up to God’s Word, then the teaching of truth will be valuable to all.

I’ve been sharing the first couple of DVD’s with a few men and women the past couple of days and had different responses – some skeptical, some excited, some angry, some scared about where this “new” teaching will go, and what affect it will have on their lives.

I understand all of those reactions. In the beginning days I myself was not open to discussing the women’s issue and I wouldn’t even read a book that was given to me on this issue. It just seemed heretical to me to go against the tradition that I had been taught. And I would never have touched this issue with a ten foot pole unless I had not been forced into it by a friend’s comments to me. I now praise God for that friend’s prejudice towards me because it pushed me into the Word to study to find out for myself instead of staying in the position of fear of change.

I look forward to someday hearing the “fruit” of your ministry using what I have learned.

Craig,
You asked:

Am I correct in thinking that in your view Cheryl,
“teach” refers to false teaching by a particular Ephesian woman that may have been directed toward and influencing many people in the church – not just her husband.
“to have authority over” (NIV) is just directed to her husband.
In other words “to teach” and “to have authority over” don’t necessarily have to have the same target group.

Again I am so sorry for my absence. I had some time yesterday but I used it to catch up on areas of ministry that I am behind on.

Here is my answer to your question. I do not believe that “teach” and “authentein” are to two different target audiences. I believe that this was a private matter between the woman and her husband although it is probable that either one of them or both of them let others know that she is teaching him her newfound doctrine.

There are two reason that I don’t believe that there were two different target audiences. First of all the grammar of the passage has two verbal clauses joined together by a conjunction with only one object “a man”. Nominal phrases typically have a subject and an object and since there is only one subject and one object, the normal way to take this grammar is that the “man” is the object of both actions. See my screen print below:

Another example would be in Rev. 2:20 where Jezebel “teaches” and “leads” the same people which are identified as “my slaves”. There is not one group that she teaches and another group that she leads. The conjunction joins teaches and leads by Jezebel towards the one group. The same for 1 Tim. 2:12. The sentence structure would have to be different for the actions to be towards two different groups.

The second reason why I believe from the context that she is teaching “behind the scenes” is that if she was publicly teaching, it would have been easier to stop her as she would have been lumped into the same group as all the other public false teachers. But the inspired grammar gives no indication that she was teaching any others. There were two things that she was doing that needed to be stopped and both actions were being done to “a man”. If you have a close look at Rev. 2:20 you will see the same connection.

Craig, you said:

If “a man” is interpreted as a particular woman’s husband then my friend thinks that would mean that the false teaching must only be towards the husband. This my friend thinks would be unlikely.

I would agree. This is where the sticky situation comes in. Publicly a person can be rebuked, but a private teaching in the intimacy of the marriage is much harder to rebuke.

I also believe that the man that she was teaching was her husband since men didn’t have private discussions with women unless they were their sons or husbands. And since Paul references Adam and Eve and the deception of Eve as a picture of the problem and the reason for the prohibition, it seems quite obvious that the “man” and “woman” were in a similar situation as the other married couple in the garden.

So Timothy becomes aware that the husband is letting his wife teach him. He is allowing her to practice her deception and he is saying nothing. What does one do about a private teaching session between wife and husband when it is someone’s else’s wife and the husband is not correcting her? Do you see how sticky that can be? Public teaching brings a public rebuke but this kind of wrong that is done in the presence of only only one and with a woman that needs to be silenced but she isn’t your wife, well that is a truly sticky situation.

Paul’s concern is mostly for her. In verse 15 he doesn’t say that “they will be saved….if…” He says “she will be saved…if…” The concern was for her salvation so obviously her husband knew better. The deception was being spoken in private not in public and allowing her to continue to practice her deception will not bring her to the truth.

This is how I see it because I want to pay close attention to the grammar. It appears clear to me that the correction that comes in 1 Tim. 2:11-12 is separated from the other public false teaching because it is private and not public and the correction is especially difficult because it makes Timothy responsible to correct someone else’s wife for matters that have been done in their own private home. If there is any other grammar that would correct my understanding, I am open to it. But from what I can see, this is a private matter between a husband and a wife but her salvation is worth taking the risk to correct her in a way that would be culturally inappropriate.

Does this help a little?

Craig, you are welcome.

These things are going in the book that I am writing. I am writing especially for those who need to understand Paul by hearing him come to life. I believe it will help people to understand the cultural reasons why Paul spoke the way he did to Timothy and what challenges were made to Paul that resulted in his words about women in ministry. I sincerely believe that it will help a lot more people to receive freedom in Christ on the women’s issue.

Oh and I got a break from being Bob(ette) the builder today so that I could catch up on some important ministry to-do’s. I still haven’t caught up, but I am working on it.

@75 Holly,
You said:

My “Women in Ministry – Silenced or Set Free” arrived yesterday! So excited *big grins*! I went to my parent’s home and got them both to watch the first DVD with me last night. That was an interesting experience. I’m taking it to my aunt’s place to watch again tonight… and then my sister’s tomorrow… I MIGHT get to the second DVD over the weekend! lol

I am happy that your DVDs arrived. Do you know how many people have told me that they watched the DVDs three times? More than I can count. It usually goes this way…they watch the first time to get the big picture. They watch the second time stopping and starting the DVDs so that they can look up each scripture I quote to make sure it is in context. Then the third time they watch again to pick up on all the things they missed the first time around. By the third time something just clicks and people tell me that they “get it”. I think it takes so many people three times because the DVDs are jam packed with information that it is difficult to absorb all of it at once.

One very precious lady wrote me how the first time she watched the DVDs she was angry. Then she watched again and she read all of the verses that we quoted in the NASB, in her KJV so that she could make sure that the quotes were accurate. The third time around she was in tears but joyful that she was finally released from what had bound her for so many years. She also shed tears for all the years that she had buried her calling knowing that it was too late for her. I cried when I read her testimony as I do when I read the testimony of those who had buried their calling and their heart felt purpose because they believe that God can’t use women to teach in public. When they write me how God used what I have written to set them free I feel so honored and humbled to be an instrument to touch people’s hearts. Only God can do that and He is still working today!

I would be interested to hear your story someday especially about the “interesting experience” watching the first DVD with your parents. I would venture to guess that they heard things that they had never considered before, but it may have been an uncomfortable experience for them.

Anyways I do encourage questions here or they can be placed on the DVD page at http://strivetoenter.com/wim/women-in-ministry-silenced-or-set-free-dvd/ which is also the tab at the very top which says DVD.

Blessings to you!

Craig @73
You said:

Next question. Cheryl @45,
“Timothy who Paul has encouraged before not to be timid must bypass the woman’s husband in order to silence her. Think about the culture of that time and how that culture gave a husband full authority over his wife. If the husband was the perceived “master” of his wife, it should not be hard to understand how sensitive this situation would be when Timothy needed to walk past the “master” to silence the wife’s teaching. It is no wonder that Paul specifically lists this one deceived teacher as a problem as he gives Timothy wise counsel on how to deal with this sticky situation.”
I have heard you say this sort of thing on several occasions. I am not sure that I fully understand the importance of it. What part of the passage are you addressing? What difficulty in interpretation are you addressing?

Thanks for asking! In verse 12 “a woman” is to be silenced from teaching. In 1 Timothy 1:3 Paul reminded Timothy that he was left behind for the purpose of stopping certain people from teaching false doctrine. Deception and false doctrine are a major theme in 1 Timothy and so when we see Paul lending his own name to the stopping of a person from teaching, we have to ask why would Paul single out one of the ignorant teachers who is teaching falsehood? Wasn’t the purpose of Timothy’s existence in Ephesus to stop false teachers? Was he given the command to stop any true teachers? If only false teachers were to be stopped from teaching, then why would Paul have to single out one false teacher?

I believe that the answer to these questions rest with the gender of the false teacher. Any male teacher who was teaching error could easily be commanded to stop. There was no protocol that would stop an apostolic representative from dealing directly with a false male teacher.

But dealing directly with a deceived female teacher was another story in that culture. If she was married and it appears that she was, and since the culture of that day made the husband king of his own home and his wife was under his authority, having a young man (Timothy) take control over another man’s wife would not have been seen as culturally appropriate. But if indeed she was deceived like Eve and her husband was silent like Adam and letting her carry on in her deception without correction, then someone needed to do something for her own spiritual good. Timothy was that someone. He was to go with Paul’s authority and in Paul’s name to stop her from teaching. Whatever fear that Timothy had to overstep a husband’s cultural “rights” would have been helped by Paul giving Timothy the right to stand behind Paul’s name as the author of the prohibition. So in verse 12 we have Paul giving the authority to stop a female false teacher by the authority of one of the doctrinal pillars chosen by the Lord Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:12 (NAS)
12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

I think the term “I do not allow” to be highly significant as a “weight” behind Timothy’s marching orders. “Timothy you stop her from teaching her false doctrine, and you let them know I said so.”

Craig, does this help to answer your question or have I somehow misunderstood what you were asking?

TL,
Looks like there are at least three of us without work being done on our yards that can be disruptive. Hopefully the mess will all turn out for the good for all.

Hi Holly,
You are welcome to ask questions here. If I can give a reasonably short answer I can do it here. If it needs more work I am refer you to a post where I can answer or if the question has already been answered, I can refer you to where the answer is. Go ahead and ask 🙂 .

Time for me to call it a night. My life has been turned upside down with the construction and I am exhausted. My whole yard now looks like this:

I am praying that we don’t get rain because we could have a giant mud bath.

53 Holly,

You said:

It’s dawning on me that I’ve always been taught and seen the Trinity in a hierarchical way,

1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Spirit

even while at the same time saying that they are Equal and One…

1) God the Father 2) God the Son 3) God the Holy Spirit

and I’ve always been “ok” with this… yet it’s not even logical when I really think about it 🙁

Don’t feel bad, I think we all have come to understand that we have accepted and believed things that we didn’t properly evaluate. I am just so glad that you are relooking at these things and seeing why your former understanding was not logical. I remember the time when I started to look through the Genesis account of Adam and Eve and questioning why I had accepted as truth so much that wasn’t written in the Scriptures. When it finally dawned on me that I had just accepted things as fact that really made no logical sense at all, I was so amazed that I had fallen for these traditions. And when I started to share my questions with others, they too were finally able to see the contradictions for themselves that they had believed. I really think that God is so patient with all of us as we take time to really get it.

Craig #51 you said:

For egals, their explanation doesn’t depend on the meaning of this word because their is no legitimate authority.

I am not sure if I agree. Although we are convinced by the Scriptures that there is no authority of one person over another, if the Scriptures refuted that and listed an authority given to one sex or one “kind” of person, I for one would have to submit to the Scriptures. However the Greek authentein in 1 Timothy 2:12 doesn’t grant that authority. After all comps make this verse say more than it does. The verse doesn’t say that men are allowed to authentein anyone. Why the term is used by Paul for “a woman” does not at all grant any man the right to authentein. Also if Paul had meant the ordinary kind of authority that the world recognizes, he would have used the term that was used and understood by all.

Any type of “authority” would be bad- for either men or women to exercise over the other. All the discussion about the meaning of “authentein” may be interesting but not critical to their position.

Some may feel this, but I believe that we cannot just discount any verse and force it into our own viewpoint. We have to sincerely want to understand the inspired words and the inspired context even though from the outset it adds nothing to the teaching that males have authority over females. Because the verse is God-breathed, we need to desire to know what God intended by placing this verse in the Scripture.

Craig, thanks so much for all your poking and prodding! I think that this is very helpful and a good example to all of us.

It was an interesting day for me. I was a “go-for” girl especially since the back yard was so dug up, I was the only one who was outside the “hole” that could run for things. We had two surprises. The first was hitting the 1939 sewer line and breaking it. We were planning to replace it – eventually. Know what happens when you break a vintage sewer line? Well some things don’t work.

The second surprise was finding an old buried oil tank that we didn’t know was there. Thank the Lord there were no leaks in the tank and the excavator was able to get it out. The environmental guy who came to test the soil didn’t even know what should be done with it. I guess we find out tomorrow.

Gengwall, I am impressed that you would find time for this blog when you too are so busy too! Kudos to you and a very happy birthday.

gengwall,
Happy Birthday!

Thanks guys for helping out on the blog! My days have been incredibly busy with deconstructing parts of our house and preparing for the actual construction of the office and studio. I may be overwhelmed for awhile yet. Here is what we are facing today:

The water line, sewer and gas need to be removed and relaid and a hole of at least 3 feet deep from my back door sloping to the end of the yard will remain by the end of today as we are preparing for the new construction. I am already behind in ministry work and my book is not yet finished so I will do the best I can here to pop in as I can, but I can’t promise anything because of the construction. Your help in answering questions and discussing this issue with those who are needing help is very much appreciated! Gotta run now, my house is shaking and the machine is removing our yard.

The other comment I have on verses 14 & 15 is that I can completely understand how these verses have confused so many people for so long. What has complicated their understanding is the false belief that in this passage Paul’s purpose is to restrict women’s ministry. If one starts with this presupposition, it is very difficult to draw any sense from verse 15 in particular. For if Paul is intending to restrict all women from teaching men, why bring in the issue of salvation? And what has Eve’s deception to do with Christian women today? Why would Paul restrict all women and then question their salvation and then attach that to the bearing of children? Nothing really makes sense if one believes that Paul has created a brand new law that has never been written in God’s law before but Paul claims that it is a law founded in creation. How can that be when women have never been restricted in this way in the entire history of the Bible?

But when one understands that Paul is not using the plural “women” because his restriction is not a universal restriction on all women. Rather, Paul is dealing with false teaching and a false teacher who has a husband who is just like the silent Adam. Timothy who Paul has encouraged before not to be timid must bypass the woman’s husband in order to silence her. Think about the culture of that time and how that culture gave a husband full authority over his wife. If the husband was the perceived “master” of his wife, it should not be hard to understand how sensitive this situation would be when Timothy needed to walk past the “master” to silence the wife’s teaching. It is no wonder that Paul specifically lists this one deceived teacher as a problem as he gives Timothy wise counsel on how to deal with this sticky situation. I love the way Paul ends his instruction to Timothy in verse 15 after saying to “let her learn” and Paul’s giving out of his own authority for Timothy to use to stop her from teaching. Here is what I love: Paul concludes with the positive promise that she will be saved if the silent husband will take an active role in the rehabilitation of his wife in order to walk alongside her in faith, in love for the truth and in self-control to stay away from false doctrine. Everyone who has been in a position of being deceived by a lie can be encouraged by the pathway to life that includes learning the truth, loving the truth and embracing the truth with self-control to stay away from the lie.