8 lorene,

Welcome to my blog! I am going to answer your question first since you are new to this forum. You said:

That is a big difference between “increase your pain IN” and “increase your sorrow AND.” How do you explain the difference in translation?

The NIV is not a word for word translation but a thought for thought translation. It is what the translators thought that God meant that is shown in the NIV. However the original does not have “IN” childbearing but “I am increasing grief of you AND pregnancy of you” You can see the original Hebrew words with the word for word translation here:
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen3.pdf

There are two things that God said he would greatly increase – Eve’s grief (meaning work or labor) and her pregnancy (meaning conception). Eve’s conception would be increased because she now is mortal and humanity must still be able to fill the earth even with death in the picture. Her work (grief) would also be greatly increased because of all the work that would result from all the pregnancies that she would have to endure and how quickly she could now become pregnant since God said he would “greatly” increase her conception.

I hope that looking at the original Hebrew with the English translation will help you out with understanding God’s meaning.

I have Ortlund’s chapter in CBMW’s book so marked up from the errors, that it will be impossible for me to address them all in this format. Unfortunately his elevation of male pride comes through quite loud in his writing.

The issue of “Federal headship” of Adam has major problems when one considers Eve. There is no basis in the bible for a view that Adam’s sin was put onto his wife and she died because of his sin. It becomes clear when one considers the question about what would have happened if Adam had sinned but Eve had not sinned? According to the “Federal headship” doctrine, Eve still would have died because Adam’s sin would have been charged to her. But try to find justification for this teaching in scripture and you come up with nothing at all. It is a doctrine that is forced onto scripture because it fails the test with Eve. Rather than “Federal headship” one should just accept that the bible says that all of us were “in” Adam when he sinned. Eve was not “in” Adam when he sinned.

Greg,
As usual your word pictures are very clear cut 😉

Paula also changed the verses on the “Egomaniacs” spot above to be Matt. 19:30 and Matt. 20:26. Very appropriate verses. Paula, you are a very creative lady, that’s for sure.

Paula,
Hillarious!!!

Arlene, your questions deserve to be answered. I think their “egg” is cooked too hard to venture an answer to your questions.

Don and Lin,

Good thoughts. I can see that your thinking cap is on regarding my graphic.

My message is simple. They profess that they have the heat and their heat is cooking the egg. As a woman and as a follower of Christ it is my duty, obligation and right to lift the lid and examine the egg. That is what this post is doing. I am examining the “egg” of their teaching. Folks, let me tell you, the egg is rotten and the closer I get to that egg, the worse it smells!

Don,

That is a good guess, but not quite right. If you click on the Pyromaniacs link at the top of my post and then scroll down to the end of the post itself and before the comments you will see the graphic. When you see the graphic, take another guess 😉

Arlene,

Amen! By the way I changed the automatic icons to something other than faces. It looks like some of the men didn’t like the pink smiles that went beside their name 😉 and others couldn’t figure out why they got frowns. The program just automatically generated an icon unless the poster had a gravatar. I have changed it so the faces are gone and if you would like to have a personal gravatar to represent you (like I have the upside down happy girl) you can create your own by going to http://en.gravatar.com/ and here you can attach a picture or a graphic that will always go beside your name. Have fun!

Lin,

I was also confused as to what this has to do with the New Covenant where we are all priests in the Holy Priesthood. And where all true believers have ‘anointing’. (1 John)

That is certainly a thorn in their flesh. It doesn’t fit their no-women-pastor’s model. But then the arrogant denouncing of women pastors in the way they did shows they have no intention on being rational or reasonable.

Am I the only one perceiving this or has the stakes gotten higher? In other words is the rhetoric getting more acidic and the charges more arrogant and unloving? I sit back and watch all of this and wonder how in this world can these men name the name of Christ? Where was even one woman in the scripture dealt with this way for using her God-given gifts for the benefit of men? Amazing!

Here is a note to those who may also have experienced blog bombing from Craig Coffey, a.k.a. “Happy Promise Keeper “, Danni has created a special page on her blog about abusive Christianity & Happy Promise Keeper.

http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/abusive-christianity/articles-about-spiritual-abuse/happy-promise-keeper/

If anyone has any more information or would like to contribute to the page, you can email Danni at the above link.

116 Paula,

I will send you his IP address. I don’t think it would be appropriate to post it online since that is what was done to me by a comp who opposed me and I don’t think this was right so I don’t want to do the same thing that they do. However I will give it out to whoever will need it to give them a head’s up and I would be happy to do so. Thanks for asking. I will email you, Paula.

111 Mary,

Lots of great words! Thanks.

Such is the fruit of a belief system that uses only biblical descriptions of worldly social systems as its justification. “Everyone (does) what is right in their own eyes.” Men receive preferential status simply for being men, and women are taught that it is a virtue to accept that status quo. It’s no wonder that egalitarians and biblical equality are so hated! There’s a great deal of worldly power to be lost if women accept their full freedom in Christ and Christian men start considering their Christian sisters as better than themselves.

Very profound!

April,

Very well said! In fact I believe your words are prophetic.

We, as a movement, have to move like water, moving through whatever crevice will allow us and breaking down the hardness however we can. We have to persist in what we know is right and trust that God will bring down the mighty and the proud.

God has said that He will resist the proud and give grace to the humble. I love the analogy to water. I used to think that I could work hard to remove the barriers that stop the strong complementarians from giving grace to women, but I have come to understand that it isn’t arguments that keep many of them as strong complementarians. It is things other than arguments. One of the strongest “things” is pride and may I even say arrogance. This is the realm of God’s intervention as he will resist the proud and when they have walked the full pathway of their pride, they will be brought low through the fruit of their own actions. God will then get the glory, not us.

Thank you for coming here and blessing us with such profound words. Your words resonate in my heart as being the godly way of grace in action and yet not turning one iota from the pathway that God has set before us.

Jennifer,

If I really offended you, please forgive me;

I was just hoping that I wasn’t offending you by editing your post. No you haven’t offended me. I just needed to edit the post because I am way too soft hearted to let the words attract others who could come here and get really messy. And I really do want to honor Jesus in this blog even if there is dishonor coming from nasty comps.

I’d give you a big hug if we were close by. 🙂

Jennifer,

Good thoughts! Understanding the mindset that these people have allows the arrows to be deflected so that they bounce off you. As one very wise man said a long time ago “I don’t let them rent space in my head.” There will be no space available in my head for those who practice abuse. They are just not worth the time or effort. I am so glad that you found Danni’s blog helpful. We can always learn from a wise woman. 😉

As a learning experience for all, I would like to copy from a blog that Happy Promise Keeper was “happy” to also dive bomb. Notice the common words about “God led” him to leave the post? The following is from http://dannimoss.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/an-abuser-takes-aim-at-this-blog/ Unfortunately this attitude is not uncommon amongst hierarchists. They have little respect for boundaries and they use the “leading” of God as a spiritual leverage to do whatever dirty work they would like. This is the fruit of hierarchy.

Since this commenter has persisted in an astonishingly pernicious “bombing” of this blog, I have decided to point out his example to readers. If you use the search bar and type in “Happy Promise Keeper” you can see all the comments posted by this reader, except for a couple which I deleted following his defiance of my wishes.

After attempting to engage politely with this writer for several days, and after his insistence on continual disrespect, I told him he was no longer welcome here and to stop posting comments. In amusing irony, he then decided that “God led” him to leave this blog. Really? “God” led him away? After I told him not to post?

Just this statement alone should raise all kinds of red flags. He might as well have directly stated, “well, I won’t leave because you said so even though this is your blog, only because God said so, because I have no respect for you even though you are the owner of this blog.”

Well, after a break from “Happy” thoughts, he returned today. Since he decided to defy my stated wishes, I think his comments are worthy of making an example. Here is our exchange:

Happy Promise Keeper:

Hi, Danni. I am led of the Lord to come back here for a time. I would like to comment on this that you said …..

“Domestic abuse is exactly the same spirit as sexual adultery, but even more egregious because it includes the element of a murderous spirit. ”

Please share with me how you arrive at this conclusion, of course aside from simple opinion. I simply cannot see this point born out in Scripture. The Scripture is VERY clear that one CAN divorce for adultery and even remarry. But, with the vague definitions of “domestic abuse” we see these days, I am concerned that we are allowing too much liberty to divorce unless and until EACH case of alleged domestic abuse is proven. If we broaden Scripturally-allowed divorces to include the mere allegations of this “domestic abuse” then we are doing a disservice to marriage.

Agree or disagree?

Danni:

You were not led of the Lord to come back here in direct violation of my request for you to refrain. That expresses a tremendous lack of understanding of Biblical authority and reveals your personal fundamental disrespect for women.

How would it be possible for “the Lord” to lead you back here when the owner of this blog specifically told you not to post again? On this blog I have the authority to say who can post and who cannot. You have been very specifically told not to post but you say “the Lord” led you to disobey the authority on this blog? That is categorically impossible. So you need to check what “Lord” you are obeying – it is not the God of the Bible.

Your behavior is that of an abuser. YOU are openly expressing – and leaving a visible public record of – your own heart. Your choices are revealing some very vivid errors:

1) You are insisting on your will over what has been clearly expressed by another – which is abusive. This is the same heart of a man who will insist on his will over his wife’s because he does not believe his wife has any authority over anything – not even her own thoughts, beliefs, opinions, or ideas. If you will do this to a stranger on a public forum – you will do it to your wife and any other woman. I will go so far as to say with complete assurance that, since you cannot refrain from such behavior with a stranger in a public forum, this is a pattern of behavior that characterizes you in all your relationships with women.

2) You are using spiritual manipulation by saying “the Lord” directed you. The Lord will never direct someone to violate the will of another where that other person’s will is of equal, or greater, weight in the situation. The only way you can justify this is if you fundamentally believe your will is superior to mine and you have some inherent right to supercede and dominate mine – in blogland, where you have no authority; on my blog, where I have all of the administrative authority. This means your words that “the Lord” directed you are a lie and manipulative. If you are not aware that you are lying and being manipulative you need to get on your face with God in some serious repentance. That is a fact – which I’m quite sure you will reject.

3) We have previous addressed your insistence that I justify my writing to you – even on this thread. This is bullying, and again, forcing your will in dominance over me. I will not justify one word to you. I attempted to engage in dialogue with you and you amply demonstrated that you will not receive anything I say. So there is no point. “Answer not a fool according to his folly…”

4) Your choice to come back here and attempt to pick up where you left off is also typical abuser behavior. Abusers frequently make the rounds back where they have been before and previously attempted or succeeded in abuse, to see if they can pull the string again. Is there still a sucker attached to this one? You just did something so extremely stereotypical of an abuser, I am amazed.

You have some personal choices to make. You can receive the truth that I have just told you, or you can reject it. But one choice you do not have is to engage me in conversation on my blog about what I have written. This is not because I cannot defend what I believe. It is because I refuse to attempt to engage with an abuser. I have deleted your other comment. I will only leave comments by you because they continue to reveal your abusive heart attitudes – since they then stand as a living testimonial for others to see your example. Other similar comments from you will receive a similar response from me.

Mary, absolutely! The worst thing for a drive-by player is to have the curtain pulled back on their bad behavior. Those who delight in doing bad things love the darkness.

John 3:20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Okay, I’m blushing. I’m a pastor’s kid and I didn’t even use slang when I was a kid…didn’t even know what a “zit” was until I was married.

I know your mad. But it is okay. Don’t be mad at them for me. We are fighting a common enemy, but they have been deceived to think that they will win or look good by taking a strip of off us (or me!) This is persecution in its raw form. I practice not responding in kind because it only gives them the justification to practice this bad fruit. People need to see the fruit that they are displaying and God-willing people will see that the attitude here is much different. Yes, there is a lot of hurt that needs to come out, but God will help many to hurt here and share their hurt without having to lash out the way these very bad examples of comps do. Believe it or not there are some decent complementarians out there who do not act this way and comps are not our enemy.

I think the best thing to do is pull the blinders back on what these folks do and then show the world that we are not like them. They will know us by our love.

Love and hugs,
Cheryl

Mary,

Thanks for the head’s up! I am not surprised at all that HPK would say this:

Kamilla, thank you for the heads up. Trust me, I’ve dealt with this type of witch before. She is now “moderating” my every comment so I’m sure I will be shown the door. I’ll go down fighting for the truth. If I can just save that one lost sheep …..

Since I asked for proof of the deceptions he claimed were on my blog, he no longer wants to post here saying that the “Holy Spirit” is guiding him away. His language on the link you posted reveals why I put his comments on moderation. It is my desire to honor the Lord Jesus here and not give a platform to those who want to mock their brothers and sisters in Christ. Such a shame when this attitude comes out and it is attached to the name of the Lord. If I were a comp, I would be fully ashamed of the language and gossip from that discussion board in the link you gave.

And by the way HPK was not “shown the door”. I asked him to read the material on my site before he made general accusations that he could not substantiate. The CCC discussion board is very much like the CARM discussion boards – the abusive way that comp Christians talk to other Christians is tolerated and encouraged. Very sad indeed.

tyrone,

Welcome!

The interesting thing about “The Angel of the LORD” is that he is the Old Testament manifestation of the preincarnate Christ.

62 Happy Promise Keeper said:

The Bible shows a clear difference between giftedness and authorization. Spiritual giftedness in a Christian woman does not confer upon her authority to lead and teach men, with the only caveat being when men abdicate and then women step up and lead out of necessity.

While this is stated very confidently, there is no such scripture that restricts women regarding the Holy Spirit’s “authorization” to use the gifts he gives. 1 Peter 4 gives authorization for all who have received a gift to use it in service without restriction.

1 Peter 4:10 As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1 Peter 4:11 Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Paul also concurs in 1 Corinthians 14 that all are allowed to prophesy so that all may learn. There is no restriction on women’s prophesying or the use of their gifts. It is also a contradiction to say that women are not allowed to lead or teach unless men abdicate their “role”. If women are not allowed to teach in the assembly, then men’s failure to do what they are told could not possibility remove the restrictions on a woman. The fact is that God gives gifts to those who are then responsible to use their gifts for the common good. Those who withhold the use of their gifts for the benefit of the body will be judged for that. Our mandate is to serve the body with all the gifts and ability that God has given us. When we listen to men who speak contrary to the word of God, we are not following God by faith, but following mere men.

he only caveat being when men abdicate and then women step up and lead out of necessity. We see this principle shown in the OT but the Apostle Paul laid the clear foundation for it in the Pauline Epistles.

There is nothing in the OT scriptures that says that God called women because men abdicated their “roles”. This is something that has to be read into scripture because it is not there.

Jesus also never permitted women to usurp the authority of His disciples.

This is just plain silly. Where was there an “authority” given to all of Jesus’ men disciples that women tried to “usurp” and Jesus did not permit them? Jesus made it clear that his followers were on an equal plain and none of them was to lord it over the others.

I have seen some egalitarians go so far as to denigrate Paul’s teachings and blaspheme the Word by claiming that Paul “did not have the same authority or annointing that Jesus had and therefore his words cannot be considered divine or as pertinent as Jesus’s”. This is in clear violation of even the most basic Biblical foundations.

This sounds blasphemous to me. Paul certainly wrote the words of God and what he wrote is completely inspired. However Paul did not have the “same authority” that Jesus had because Paul was not the Son of God. What Happy Promise Keeper here has written is one of the most unbelievable things for a Christian to write making Paul in the same category with the same authority as the Creator of the Universe. This is very bad theology.

Paul’s testimony says, “For I would have you know that the gospel which was preached by me, is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:11-12). This is an emphatic statement which insists that Paul’s message is completely divine in nature. He received it as a direct revelation from Christ, not as a tradition handed down from the past.

It is once again apparently that Happy Promise Keeper has not read the material in this blog. I have consistently taught that Paul’s words written in scripture are God-breathed and the gospel that Paul wrote was certainly a direct revelation from Christ. It is the complementarians themselves who are guilty of ignoring God’s word through Paul as they ignore 1 Timothy 2:15 as fully inspired, given as the complete end to the prohibition of 1 Timothy 2:12. Those who choose to ignore verse 15 will continue to be confused by verse 12.

If we say that we believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, then we must also accept the authority of those whom He sent. We must accept and believe the entire New Testament as our final rule of faith and practice, or else we call in question the authority of the apostles and even the authority of our Lord Jesus. We can’t have it both ways. We must conclude that Paul’s teachings were every bit as authoritative as those of Jesus, as well as the other founding FATHERS of the faith.

All scripture is inspired and profitable for teaching and reproof and for godly living. The problem with complementarians is that they so often take one scripture out of its inspired context and this causes them to distort the precious words of scripture. No one here that I know of is denying that Paul’s words are scripture. To say otherwise is to misrepresent our view. This is very common, sad to say because so many complementarians have a prejudiced view against their brothers and sisters in Christ, that their eyes and ears are blinded to hear and see what we truly believe. It is easier to distort what we believe than to really find out the truth.

Since Happy Promise Keeper has now determined that “the Holy Spirit” has called him away from reading on this blog, then one must wonder if what he believes is the Holy Spirit’s prompting is not just his own fleshly desires. The Holy Spirit is never guilty of distorting the truth or misrepresenting the beliefs of the body of Christ. Those who practice such things should not claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them in this direction. It would be much more honest to admit that they are not interested in learning and judging others without a solid foundation to do that is a work of the flesh.

Michael,

Amen! The issue of hierarchy is one that Jesus dealt with and his words that show what the attitude is to be as leaders is key. Leadership is servanthood with care, love and compassion. Those who are looking for a position of ruling over others are following the way of the world not the Way of the Master.

I did make a note the issue that I wanted to tackle next, but for the life of me I can’t find my note nor can I see where I responded on my blog where I commented to someone about the next issue for a new post. If anyone remembers what I said, please let me know what it was. Sorry for being so scatterbrained. I think this past issue was a lot on my mind plus other issues that we are going through here, that it completely slipped my mind and I can’t make myself remember 🙁

Lin,

This is the exact thing that it seems to me as well. The way that the opposition presents the woman needing someone to make decisions, makes her to be very childlike.

Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words.

I pulled this quote out of one of HPK’s posts. I was looking for the fruit that followed from this poster since this is what he believed must come through men alone. Unfortunately the posts that I didn’t allow through from this poster were not a good example of such spiritual leadership. Mocking name calling is not appropriate.

Scripture gives us the standard:

2 Timothy 2:23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
2 Timothy 2:24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2 Timothy 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

I trust the Holy Spirit will work on his heart so that he eventually will meet the standard that God sets.

Charis,

Well said! Amen sister!!

Apparently HPK has decided not to take me up on my offer as he believes the “Holy Spirit” has told him not to visit this site again. While I cannot judge his motives as I cannot see his heart, the actions are consistent with what CBMW has done.

I trust that the community here will understand that correcting error in a respectful and loving way is what we are called to do as Christians for our own Christian brothers and sisters in Christ who are being misled. We will continue to do that here on this blog, God willing. It would have been nice to see the same attitude coming from our brother in Christ instead of throwing grenades and running away. This is the very thing that I want to protect this community from because it isn’t the way of the Master.

rejoice,

I am saddened to hear that the attitude of women being silent is also carried on in some home fellowships. This would certainly be stifling and restrictive. Our brothers in Christ just have no idea how much they miss when they restrict women’s speech. By restricting God’s women from speaking, they are in essence quenching the Holy Spirit. With all that is going on in the church today, and with so many Christians bailing out of the churches because of abusive leadership, ungodly teachings and nothing but “fluff” teachings, one would think that things should be better in home fellowships. All we can do is pray that God will be allowed freedom to do as he pleases in the body of Christ and we will not be a hindrance to him. The tide is turning towards women, but sometimes it seems to be much slower than we would like. But God has promised that in the last days he would work through women as well as men and so we must trust that he is able to open doors that no man can shut.

HPK,

You are in my “space”. You do not have the right to come here and be disrespectful to me. You have the complete right to refute my teachings if you so wish. I welcome that. But you will not be allowed to judge my motives nor do you have the right to call my teaching deception without showing me what is deceptive and where my error is.

Since you appear to be one who is not respectful of the authority that I have on my own blog, I have you on permanent moderation. If you choose to read what I have written and you would like to refute my material, go ahead. This blog is for discussion of the hard passages of scripture regarding the women’s issue. It is for discussion on my material of my DVDs. I also allow respectful dialog on the area of women in ministry to those who are willing to show Christian love and respect for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. The fact that I have not completely blocked you from responding is grace in action.

Go ahead and read my blog. Respond to what I have presented as my view and refute it if you are able. Enjoy!