Cheryl

Wow! This post has taken a turn that I didn’t expect, but I am truly grateful for all the words of kindness that are being advocated to other believers.

Don said about Jesus:

He also put people together who could not stand each other, what sense does it make to put a tax collector (read collaborator with the oppressors of Judea) in the same group with a zealot? It makes God’s sense.

I learned something from that! Thank you Don. I had not considered how hard it would have been for a former zealot (but one who obviously still had much “zeal” for the truth) to love a former tax collector. There would have been the danger of an “uppity” attitude, but Jesus promoted peace and love among his disciples. They were not to lord it over others but to treat others as better than themselves Can you imagine a zealot treating a tax collector as better than himself? But then this is to be the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Even regarding the women’s issue in the church, Jesus commanded us to love one another. Those who look down their noses at a woman Pastor and who judge her as a sinner are not only going beyond what the Word says, but they are not loving her as they have been commanded to do.

And there was much more good stuff said by teknomom:

There is a fine line between righteous indignation and just indignation. The former remembers the Golden Rule in everything, but the latter is proud. The Truth has no fear of examination, no ego to protect. But we must always speak out forcefully in defense of the honor of God and his Word. It’s a narrow path indeed.

What you have said is so true. There are many Christians who think they are fighting God’s battle when all they are doing is ripping at the sheep. To be perfectly honest, this is where God had to do a work in my heart. When I was first given John MacArthur’s tapes on women by friends of mine who thought these tapes would teach me the truth about what I could or couldn’t do in ministry, I was appalled at the incredibly restrictive stand that John MacArthur on women. My first thought was to blast him and expose his error. It was many months later as I felt strongly pulled toward producing a DVD on women in ministry, that the Lord spoke gently but firming to my heart. He said that he did not want me to rip at the sheep. That was a powerful word to me. Just as teknomom said, there can be a thin line between righteous indignation and just plain old indignation expressed in the flesh. I was guilty of wanting to express fleshly indignation and the Lord Jesus stopped me in my tracks.

The Lord Jesus’ first command is that we love one another. Once we get that down pat, then we can come to a place of maturity where we can correct false doctrine in love. One of the signs of getting to level of maturity is the ability to listen to those who we know are wrong on one debatable issue and separate the wheat from the chaff. In the beginning I had loved John MacArthur’s strong stand against the liberal view of scripture where many see scripture as subject to their own interpretation and subject to being ignored if it says something they don’t like. Then I got my back against the wall when I heard what John MacArthur said about women’s ability to minister in the body of Christ. I was especially offended that he won’t even allow women to learn in his seminary and the leaders of the women’s ministry in his church are men.

But as God worked on my heart and caused me to love John MacArthur in spite of his stand on women I can admit that John is still wrong in what he teaches but now I can listen to him and agree with him on other issues. I can throw out the stubble and hay and keep the gems. He has things I can learn from because he is a brother in Christ. I no longer have to be in a position to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That was a hard lesson for me but as I have grown in maturity I can understand that true love is solid and will not be affected by a disagreement on a non-essential doctrinal issue.

Dusman,

As always, I appreciate your words of love and grace. That is really where it is all at. When it comes down to the bottom line – we are all missing out on God’s truth in some area. So how do we treat each other when we may be right and the other person wrong? After all, there may be another area where the other person is right and we are dead wrong. The truth is that as you so clearly said, we are to treat each other with love and respect because it is for the sake of our Lord Jesus who has made us all one in the body of Christ.

To everyone else: I believe that the reason that God has made us all into one body is that no one is to become prideful. None of us is the “head” of the church and we are all “brothers” in Christ. We are all “sons” of God and the gifts that he has given us are for the benefit of each other. My gifts are not for my benefit. They are for you! And your gifts, beloved, are for me! When we truly love one another we will desire earnestly spiritual gifts so that we can be a help and a benefit to others in the body of Christ. True submission then allows another to teach you and give you their gift. It doesn’t mean that we don’t test the gifts by God’s word, but it does mean that unless we are submissive to each other, we won’t be able to benefit from our “brother’s” gifts.

Dear friends, please pray with me that brother Matt will come to a place of humility where he will allow others to correct him in love. He has gifts that the body of Christ needs. But the body of Christ does not need another accuser of the brethren saying that women are in sin if they teach the word of God with authority (Matt believes this is a “position” only allowed for male Pastors).

ccanuk said:

Paul wasn’t saying that if someone has a different view they shouldn’t be recognized, he was saying that if someone wants to be a prophet or speak in tongues they need to acknowledge what he just wrote and follow the rules. (Sorry but I have to go here) but it would include verse 33-34:

Actually you missed something. Paul said:

1 Cor. 14:37 (ALT) If anyone thinks [that he] is a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge what I write to you*, that they are commandments of [the] Lord.

The Greek is plural (commandments) and Paul is saying that if one does not accept that what he writes are the commandments (plural) of the Lord, then that person is not to be acknowledged. What are the commandments (plural) that Paul gave?

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

“Pursue” love is in the imperative and so is “desire earnestly” spiritual gifts. These commands from God and the result is edification of the church.

1 Cor. 14:26 says that all things are to be be done for edification. This is another command. Verses 27 and 28 are also commands regarding the edification of the church. Verse 29 is another command regarding judging prophesy and in verse 31 Paul gives permission for all to prophesy for the edification of the entire body of Christ.

1Co 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;

Now after all of these commands, what does verse 35 & 36 say?

1Co 14:34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1Co 14:35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

This “command” contradicts Paul’s other commands that allow women to prophesy in the body for the edification of both men and women. What’s wrong with this command? It doesn’t take us long to find out. In verse 36 Paul promptly refutes the “saying” that is quoted in verses 34 & 35. Paul says:

(AMP) What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you?

The wording in the Greek is clear that Paul’s refutation in verse 36 is following what he is refuting. (Paul has been quoting from the letter that the Corinthians wrote to him. He quoted their sayings and gave correction.) Paul is saying that God’s commands are for all Christians to be given freedom to prophesy and all are given freedom to use their gifts to edify the church. Verses 34 & 35 stop women from edifying the church and they stop women from learning God’s word. But Paul says that all may learn. This includes women. Paul also said that all may prophesy. This too includes women and Paul is not going to allow the Corinthians to disregard God’s word. This is where Paul demands that those who consider themselves to be prophets and spiritual MUST recognize that the commandments throughout chapter 14 are from God and these commands contradict the Jewish tradition that stops women from learning in public and stops them from participating in giving out God’s word.

Paul’s word still rings true today. Those who refuse to believe that women are gifted by God for the edification of the entire body of Christ are to be ignored. Their view doesn’t count because God’s view is spoken by Paul. The commands (plural) are all for the edification of the church and for the godly use of God’s gifts. Verses 34 & 35 stand in sharp contrast to the commands of God through Paul. Verse 34 & 35 are a Corinthian quote that must be refuted and put to rest. God’s commands are all for the edification of the church and man’s command restricts people because of gender. May it never be that we would seek to follow after the way of the Corinthians instead of the way of the Master!

justa berean,

I agree with you too! Basically our two ways of looking at the “problem” end up with the same solution. Women are not excluded and if God wanted to exclude them, he would have used language in such a way that it was clear and consistent. After all if it isn’t clear than we are not kept from sinning against him. God’s prohibitions are clear, they are understandable and they are enforceable.

Those who do not accept this are forced into a position of preferential treatment of one person over another. God hates that and we should too.

justa berean,

Yes, I heard the same thing. The problem with taking this stance is that it is going to be difficult for him then to prove that the salvation passages are not meant just for men. Take Matthew 16:24, 25.

Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mat 16:25 “For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

In verse 24 “anyone” is nominative singular masculine. The pronouns that follow are also singular masculine. Deny “himself” is accusative singular masculine. Take up “his” cross is accusative singular masculine. Whoever will save “his” life is genitive singular masculine. “Whosoever” will lose his life is nominative singular masculine.

The entire passage is singular masculine and every pronoun is singular masculine. If we take Matt’s word that “anyone” as a singular masculine with masculine pronouns that follow to only mean males, then we must also insist that only males can be saved and only males can take up their cross and follow Christ.

The one thing that I praise God for is a complementarian by the name of Dr. Scott Heine who agreed to be the first one to review the exegesis in my DVD series. His email and words of wisdom to me were invaluable. It was Scott who pointed out to me that 1 Timothy 3:1 was singular masculine. I asked him if this grammar eliminated women in this verse and he was gracious enough to admit that the grammar could not be used to eliminate women since all of the salvation passages had the exact same grammar – singular masculine.

We need to genuinely care about truth and exegete scripture without prejudice. 1 Timothy 3:1 does not eliminate women and Matt himself has admitted that the remaining qualifications are “normative” not a hard and fast “rule”. So we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this passage does not prohibit women from being a servant who protects the flock.

ccanuck,

teknomom answered you: “In addition, women who are gifted to teach, shepherd, lead, etc. are being called heretics and sinners.”

I think there are two basic issues here. The first is that sisters of ours are being hurt in the body of Christ. This may not hurt me personally because I am not a Pastor of a church, but if I really do love them, then I am required to stand up for those who are being mistreated.

The second issue is that we need to practice following God with all our heart and encourage others to do the same. If God has gifted us in teaching then we are expected by him to use that gift for the benefit of the body of Christ. To insist that women only use their gifts for women and to be prejudiced towards men (not allowing their teaching to be given for the benefit of men) is not a godly thing to do.

If you are not one who separates yourself from women teachers (who do not discriminate against men), then that is a godly thing that you are doing. Not everyone is like you. I personally have been shunned and treated with disrespect and anger because I do not discriminate again men. I could let that affect me and cause me to hold back in serving God, but I choose to follow Paul’s instruction in 1 Cor. 14. Paul said:

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
1Co 14:38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

The “things” that Paul wrote as the Lord’s commandment are multiple commandments in chapter 14 about everyone being allowed to use their God-given gifts. Paul says that those who do not recognize the commands to release men and women to use their gifts for the body of Christ are themselves to be disregarded or “not recognized”. So if someone is stopping women from ministering their gifts in the body, I do not need to pay attention to them because they are not recognized as speaking for God.

Next Paul goes on to once again affirm that we are to seek to edify the church through desiring to prophesy.

1Co 14:39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

He has already told us earlier in the chapter that prophesy edifies:

1Co 14:3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.

Lastly Paul tells us that all things must be done properly and in order:

1Co 14:40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

But Paul does not say that the gifts are to be held back or the members of the body to be held back. Although Paul said that only two or three people may speak in tongues in any one meeting, the reason was so that those who were not believers would be edified too. Paul did not say that women or Gentiles were to be stopped from speaking in tongues. Anyone could speak in tongues, they just needed to wait their turn.

So limiting the people speaking at any one service is in no way reflective of stopping anyone from exercising their gift in turn. It certainly does not equate to the stopping of women teaching the bible to men.

Does any of this make sense?

Don,

Your points were good! The first point is especially helpful to me and along the same line as one given to me by Dusman. This is the way that I see it – we need to have a level of consistency or scripture can be made to say anything we want it to say. If grammatical gender is important to force one to say that only men are in mind, then we need to follow through with the logical outcome of that view. That is where the inconsistencies come out of the rabbit hole. My problem is that it is easier for me to think these things through on line or on paper then on live radio! I must trust that the Holy Spirit will enlighten my mind to remember what is important and leave aside what is dross.

Keep the comments coming! They are excellent thoughts and worthy of paying attention to.

teknomom,

Thanks for your html help! I don’t mind a certain level of rabbit trails including this one. I have a real love for all of you folks who have been faithful and been a support to me. As long as we keep the tone respectful and somewhat in order 🙂 I don’t really mind.

There has been a lot written that I haven’t had a chance to read through because my folks are here and aren’t leaving until the day of the next debate. That leaves me scrambling a little for time. I will read through all the comments in time and I am sure they are helpful to others who are here and interested in what y’all have to say!

Don,

This is very helpful information for you to point out on this blog.

Don,

You are right in that scriptures do not forbid a couple from choosing what works the best for their marriage and their home.

Under Much Grace,

Thanks for the update! I have been so busy this last week that I haven’t had a chance to catch up on the audio. I will be sure to download the audio.

Dusman,

I love the articles on christian-thinktank.com regarding women in ministry. They have been helpful to me in ministry.

Don,

Good teaching! Yes, I got that this is what you meant. Good job in letting us all know that there is more to see in the text than our English minds can pick up through just a translation!

Don,

Okay, now I get it. Hesuchia means quietness. (Thanks Pastor “Dusman” for giving me an head’s up education!)

It is my belief that everyone deserves to be treated with respect. My husband would teach his co-workers that when you are communicating you always need to cc Dr. A

This is a way to remember the essentials. We need to treat each person with:
C – care and
C – concern with
D – dignity and
R – respect and
A – affirmation

You may have noticed that I tried hard to let Matt know that I valued him as a brother in Christ. This was the reason I told Matt the “story” about a very stressful time in my life when I found out that good friends were being influenced by a former Pastor who had become a Universalist and was recruiting people (including my friends) who were attending a Calvary Chapel church. I found Matt’s web site and got some very valuable information on Universalism that helped me refute the former Pastor. In this way Matt was very helpful to me and his ministry work was very needed.

I didn’t want Matt to think that because I was coming against him on the women’s issue that I was coming against his ministry. Affirmation is very important when you are in a position to refute someone else. I used the same kind of thing in my DVD series when I knew that I was going to be refuting very influential people in the body of Christ. I did not want people watching my DVD to think that I was attacking the person and so I took the time to affirm those whom I would disagree with so that people would realize that these men are not my enemies but beloved brothers in Christ.

I just wish Matt knew how to cc Dr. A 😉

Don,

Wow! Thanks! I get that hesuchia has something to do with a soldier/warrior, but honestly I don’t know what it means. But if it is a good thing, I’ll be doing the “hesuchia” thing again on Wednesday because Matt and I need to wade through 1 Timothy 2. It is a key passage that is used to teach that women are in sin for being a Pastor (Matt’s view) or for teaching men (CBMW’s view).

Okay, did anybody who subscribed to the comments button get an email notification that there were more comments? Just checking.

New comments button:

My son added a comments button just below the place where you add your comments that is supposed to allow you to get an email whenever someone else enters comments. I hope it works 🙂

If you add a comment and then check the comment button to receive an email when someone else posts and do not get an email when someone else comments on the post, please let me know. This is the only way to check to see if the button works properly.

Jason,

Thanks for being a good cheering section!

justa berean and teknomom, great thoughts. Keep the thoughts coming!

Dusman,

Yup, that’s exactly what I thought you mean!

🙂

justa berean,

You said: “Apparantly he thinks he has “THE” answer to solve everything…. and he’s not saying it on the radio. LOL Smart move. Actually, he’s an interesting fellow.”

If you only say you have the answers, but you don’t give them, you don’t have to defend anything. I find it amazing that now he has an answer to refute me after a year and a half of silence and several emails to him to please show me where he disagrees with me and why. I am going to be very attentive to his very “simple” answer. Should make for a very interesting show next time.

And if anyone is interested in calling in the next day to give Matt feedback on his radio show, his radio call-in number is 208-377-3790. The show is on from 5-6 pm Pacific time Monday – Friday which is 6-7 pm Mountain time, 7-8 pm Central time and 8-9 time Eastern time.

Dusman,

Excellent post! Thanks!

One point, where you said: “Yeah but the word translated ‘overseer’ in 1 Tim. 3 (episkopes) is a *feminine singular noun* so I guess that means that Paul was also teaching that both males and females can be pastors and now you’ve got a defeater for your position!”

I hadn’t thought about this one and it is certainly a great point to pose to Matt. Thanks!

And, yes, I DO like puns!

Cheryl

justa berean,

I asked my son to see if he can set it up and he said that he can so when he gets time it should be set up. Thanks for suggesting that.

By the way if anyone wants to email Matt on his email address where he reads comments or questions for use on his radio program, you can reach him at carmradio@gmail.com

Blessings,
Cheryl

One other thing, brothers and sisters in Christ…If Matt is adamant in saying that a woman Pastor is sinning against God (or a woman doing the “role” of a Pastor by teaching scripture authoritatively), then he should be able to correct me on 1 Timothy 2:12 from the context of the passage. How can we charge sin to a person and refuse to back it up? Where does scripture ever list a woman Pastor as a sin that needs to be repented of? This is a very serious thing, my friends. We are not to judge unfairly. Matt is going to have a very difficult time in 1 Timothy 2 and please be in prayer for me that I continue to treat him as a dear brother in Christ and that I do not respond to his insults and accusations. God’s word is the important thing and when one does not have an answer to God’s word my opponent is likely to attack me personally. But a personal attack can be seen by all as a cheap shot and God does not get the glory. Please pray for me that I may endure yet through it all get the time to speak God’s wisdom for God’s glory!

Great discussion, guys!

Terri,

Two things…Matt has had my DVDs for a year and a half now and although he said that he didn’t watch them, after I told him that I knew he did because he wrote me within days after receiving the DVDs insults about the DVDs (calling them “slick” and insulting my exegesis although NEVER refuting it!), he changed his mind and said that he didn’t remember anything about the material in the DVDs. Now I find this very, very odd. Yes, I know he is busy. He is doing a very good work with CARM in a lot of areas and I commend him for his work. However part of his “work” is to stop women from teaching doctrine to men. On yesterday’s program he said that he allows women to teach bible studies “depending” on how they do it and the context. You rightly pointed out that he allows women to teach if they are teaching his material (therefore his own biblical thoughts). However does he allow women to teach doctrine? He does not allow them to teach doctrine from the pulpit and I will pose this question to him regarding his assistant whether he allows her to teach doctrine to men. I think the answer to that will be quite revealing. The point is the same as CBMW teaches. No woman is allowed to correct doctrine or even question doctrine given in the pulpit. That is something for men alone.

Matt also mentioned that he has the answer to 1 Timothy 2 about “she” and “they”. My, my, that should be interesting. He hasn’t had the “answer” for a year and a half and not a single complementarian Pastor nor any one of the complementarian apologetic organizations that I sent WIM to had the answer. In fact the only “answer” I got from them was either silence or a statement that we would have to agree to disagree. That is so sad for men who should be correcting me if I am a heretic and teaching heresy. It should be really, really interesting to hear Matt’s answer to this grammatical problem in the passage that is only answered by taking “a woman” as a single person that is stopped by Paul.

At any rate, I really look forward to having another opportunity to debate Matt. He is a brother in Christ, but he is a brother who is in error. That error needs to be corrected before any other woman is hurt and discouraged from ministry.

Dusman,

Pastor, it is people like you that really warm my heart! Your Christ-like love and patience in exhorting are very, very important to my heart today. I cannot tell you how much.

Today Matt’s callers said that he did a really good job with me on the debate and that he was kind and held himself back. I could be wrong and stand to be corrected if I am, but his kind of “kindness” just doesn’t touch my heart.

But my heart is touched by the women in the audience who have never heard anything but the complementarian side. If I have to suffer abuse to reach even one, it is SO worth it for me.

So next Wednesday we are back to the debate. Please pray for me. I had so much prepared but didn’t get to present much at all. Pray that the Lord helps me to be brief to get the point out quickly before he cuts me off again.

Pastor, you have been such a blessing to me! I thank you from the bottom of my heart!

justa berean,

Thanks! I don’t think Matt has any soft spot for a woman in ministry or me for that matter. But I am not giving up! Next week should be quite interesting!

Martin,

Thank you for the kudos. I am not sure that I deserve anything at this moment although I was very pleased to get out alive and not be forced to get angry. Our precious Lord Jesus was there helping me to talk to a fellow brother in Christ who has no idea that he is hurting anyone. When his eyes are opened he will see things differently. I pray for the Lord Jesus to anoint Matt’s eyes to see gifted women teaching the bible in the pulpit as a godly thing.

Lin,

I question the churches idea of “authority” too. I do agree that we all have authority to use our gifts as God gives them to us. We have authority to be servants (who would want to take that authority from us?) But we do not have an authority to lord it over anyone. Those who say that a woman cannot teach the bible with authority have yet to realize that no one has any authority to tell anyone that “God says” without their also being checked out by God’s word.

Greg,

Your wisdom is appreciated, my friend.