David

Hi, all, I trust you’re well…

Craig, might I offer a few thoughts? Of course, take or leave them as you wish.

Can I suggest that this is perhaps a little imprecise? ‘Paul meant his words to be time/place specific, but they are actually applicable universally’.

(I think here might lie the key to what is confusing regarding universal commands etc..)

These reflections might be helpful. If for instance we have a family rule that is made for our children, ‘Do not steal biscuits’, then even though other families might forbid the theft of biscuits too, strictly speaking our family’s rule is not in itself applicable universally. For the implicit meaning of the rule (taking into account its context) is, ‘No child in this particular family—ie the Adams family—may steal biscuits’. It is reasonably clear, I think, that a rule whose implicit meaning is this sort of thing can’t itself have universal application.

Strictly, rules of this kind, narrow rules set in a particular concrete situation for a particular group of people, can’t themselves be applied universally. Providing the context in which they are set is given due place when thinking about them, in themselves such rules as these apply only in that context.

What we can do with this sort of rule, however, is to try to see by combining a number of them with each other whether we are justified in inferring a universal rule that is similar. Or we might be able to combine them with other broad principles, and see what happens.

I’ve been wondering perhaps whether the confusion you feel isn’t partly to do with having the idea that Paul’s language in Timothy might be narrow, and yet nevertheless susceptible to universal application.

I think a more accurate distinction for interpreting any of the Bible’s narrow rules is attained when we consider the rule on the one hand in its actual condition (which is narrow), and on the other hand as the expression of some wider rule. So for example ‘Do not sow your field with mixed seed’ is the Bible’s explicit rule—but perhaps it is the expression of a wider rule like, ‘Use resources wisely’ (seeing that carelessly mixing seeds during planting is an inefficient way to farm). Even if it is not an expression of that broad rule, it most probably is the expression of some broad rule.

In other words (i) the Bible’s narrow rules are expressions of broader ones; (ii) the broader ones might be discovered by combining as much information as possible on the subject, to see how far it gets us; and (iii) the broader rules are the ones with the wide application.

Another way of expressing the same idea is to say that Paul’s language in a narrow rule is not applicable universally, but rather constitutes the application by him of a broad rule to a particular situation.

Peace be on the heads of all…!

1. A correction for post #61. Mara thought that Piper was part of Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM). He is not. From what I know SGM is led, at least in part if not primarily, by C.J. Mahaney. Piper is Mahaney’s friend and they have been on the speaking roster together at some conferences, but Piper is not part of SGM.

2. I don’t think Piper gave his best response in this video (neither the most clear representation of his overall viewpoint, nor showing the most sensitivity to people who are in the midst of abusive situations). I am disappointed with some of the message that came across. I am not sure he clearly understood the nature of the question nor was his response as helpful as it could have been.

3. With regard to my second point, I, on the other hand, tend to cut him some slack for the following reasons:
   a. This appears to be an off-the-cuff answer to a question he had not seen beforehand nor prepared for. Pastor John is a very careful thinker, and I would say a biblical thinker, and a sensitive thinker, when he has a chance to work through things thoroughly which he usually does in his sermons and books. He also tends to very carefully word things in writing, or preaching. I have several times wondered if this “Ask Pastor Piper” video forum is the best platform for his communication of biblical understanding especially in light of how careful his thinking is in his writings and prepared speaking.
   b. If Piper is unclear about the question he is being asked, he is usually very careful to make sure he understands a question before responding. In the video he was not able to have the question clarified.
   I may be wrong, but my sense was that he didn’t understand the question clearly. His comment about perhaps being pressured into group sex by the husband makes me think he was missing the mark of the main kinds of abuse the questioner probably had in mind. And in fact, his chuckling (nervous laugh?) at the beginning may be because he for whatever reason thought he may be being asked about some kind of odd sexual abuse and it took him by surprise. I am not sure, but the direction he took on the kind of abuse just struck me as uncharacteristically odd.
   c. I am quite familiar with Piper’s thinking as I have been a member of Piper’s church for years and am have been exposed to much of his teaching. So I temper my response to this just under 4 minute video with a pretty good knowledge of his overall theology, his sensitivity and love for people (women and men), humility, love for God, and desire to be faithful to the meaning of God’s Word. He is certainly sinful and imperfect as we all are, but much of the grace of God is evident in his life and teaching.
   d. I am overall very empathetic to his theology and teaching, both preached and lived.

4. In light of my second and third points above, I would submit the following thoughts to any commenters they may apply to:
   a. A number of commenters seems to significantly dismiss Piper’s teaching and ministry based on their interpretation of this one short, off-the-cuff video of his — one which I would interpret as not his best in some ways.
   b. I somewhat understand that a main topic/the main topic being addressed in this blog article is wife abuse and related topics. And because of the reality of wife abuse in a segment of our population it is well and good to discuss how to end it, to be riled up about the injustice of it, and to seek to show love and empathy and help to those in the midst of it. I empathize with the desire and rightness of ending spouse abuse.
   c. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that many of you might not have a broad understanding of Piper’s overall teaching.
   d. If you don’t know much of Piper beyond this video, in your zeal to speak against abuse be careful of extrapolating his thoughts beyond what you know him to be saying. Many viewpoints have been given that don’t just try to clarify incorrect or sinful ideas about abuse in marriage that are out there, but I fear there are many straw-men ideas of what Piper teaches and believes included as well.
   e. So I just request that when dealing with real people and naming names that we are all careful to accurately represent people’s viewpoints the best we can without a lot of speculation.
   f. For those that have a particular issue with Piper, he certainly is fallible and would readily admit it. You can easily find lots of resources on what he has taught over the years by doing a search at http://www.desiringGod.org where large quantities of what he has preached and written over the past 29 years is available free online.

I don’t represent Piper or his ministry. I am just a member of his church who thanks God for the grace that has come to my life through the ministry of his servant John Piper.

May God bless us all as we seek to accurately hear from Him through His word and to live it out in our lives.

David