Don Johnson

Or even faze them.

I think the comps worldview is like wearing a blue lens when reading the Bible and seeing all those blue verses. They simply cannot imagine that this is what they are doing.

THANKS FOR THE POSTS.

When reading the comp’s explanations of Rom 16:7 you can just see them squirming to avoid the plain meaning of the Greek, as it simply does not fit their worldview. So it simple CANNOT mean what it says. It may not be Junia, it may be Junias (even if we have to invent the name). It may not be notable within, it may be notable to (even if we need to translate away from the primary meaning). It may not be authoritative apostles, it may be non-auhoritative messengers (even if we need to invent this idea). AFTER ALL FOLKS, it simply cannot mean what it says.

Do they not realize how destructive such an attitude to the Bible is?

Cheryl,

Yet another great insight. Do not bury your gifts or you are being disobedient.

Paula,

I found 5 typos which can be easily found using Word spellcheck.

You should be aware that the more you use unusual translations the more some people will not accept what you say or at least wonder about it. I use unusual translations myself, but try to keep it to a minimum, as a final resort.

In a sad way, this may help explain the vitriol. As you are declared a heretic, etc., then this justifies the harsh negative terms, at least in their way of thinking. But as I see it, even a heretic is not to be treated badly, as everyone is made in the image of God, a person who is not a believer is to hear the gospel. And this is where their logic fails, as if they would present the gospel to you, you would readily agree and have already agreed, so you are just continuing to agree, which means you are not a heretic.

Cheryl,

Some of the CARM posters now seem to be in a competition to tear you down by using worse and worse terms. I find it very sad. But it is sobering.

FWIIW, since one of the groups divides the workers by 2, guess which group MH or EQ will just naturally grow faster? And I do not for a moment think it is just a natural thing, there is a supernatural element to it also.

Cheryl,

If you care, now Diane S, a moderator there, is explicitly and repeatedly calling your teachings radio poison in posts. Apparently, some listeners called in to say they turned off the show. The idea of women as church leaders was just so far out and repulsive, they considered it harmful to the body of Christ, as then eventually anything goes. The posters also self-reinforce each other that Matt did nothing wrong, yet fail to discuss the idea of repeating something someone else says is a choice. They think that as he did not actually say it about you, and merely repeated it, he is innocent. I see this as very dangerous thinking.

I do think there are some lessons here.
1. If there is ever a need to be confrontational with someone who disagrees with you, be sure to state things accurately.
2. Teaching is VERY different than being on a talk show with an adversarial host who controls the mike. In the former, truth counts, in the latter, sound bites count. This is especially true with a seeming non-obvious interpretation. There are many people who never gives some verses a second thought, except to accept what their pastor tells them it means.

FWIIW, one of the things I am studying is “Hebraic roots of Christianity” and I agree with the Messianic Jew (altho I am no expert) on his compliment. We need to think more Hebraically and less like a Greek, except for those verses written to Greeks.

(Timothy and Paul were Jews, Timothy being circumcized in Acts 16, which some people pass over as it does not seem to fit with Acts 15.)

Cheryl,

May the touch of the Healer be apparent to be you today.

FWIIW, I think you tried to handle this much better than I think I would have. My model when persecuted for righteousness is Jesus when he said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

They posted this.

WIM-Suspended 3 days- Infractions and rule violations – may return to CARM 3 days from today Monday- l0/29/07. Section III Rule # 5

I posted this on their forum:

When a person chooses to repeat what someone else has said, it is that person’s choice. Even assuming someone told that to Matt, it was Matt’s choice whether to repeat it.

I cannot escape responsibility for what I say but claiming that someone else told it to me. It is ENTIRELY my choice what I say.

Also, for Matt to quote this and not immediately qualify it or repudiate it gives an implicit assent to it. Otherwise, why even quote it at all? But Matt did not do that.
—

Cheryl,

I have seen you as a great example of a humble attitude. God has specifically showm me that I could learn from you in this area. You are a good example.

Here is the quote from what is claimed to be a transcript:
————–
matt is reading the text of an email which cheryl sent him, and interrupts himself to state his opinion, and says:

“now this is to me: cheryl is a woman who wants to be in control, and a woman who doesn’t know when to just let it go. I think that she has blown it heavily, that she has undermined the Christian church, with her erring views. I’m gonna be tackling her specifically, later on, and here she continues: “

matt goes back to reading her email, and i won’t quote her email, but she asks him when he is gonna have her back on to talk about 1tim2:15, and he says that there is something that she doesn’t know about that scripture. then, in reference to her asking when she is gonna’ be back on the show matt continues:

“now here’s the thing, I know cheryl’s listening, I’m not having you back on because people called you radio poison, and incessant, you drove me up the wall because I ask you a simple question that would be a yes or no answer, you went on for five and ten minutes trying to give me a dissertation and trying to be the teacher and you are making stuff up as far as I am concerned about how to make things work. I had people say ‘don’t do it again, don’t do it again,” and I agree. you are extremely frustrating, extremely frustrating, and your followers are the same, so uh that answer to that is “no.” okay having said that…”

whereupon matt takes another phone call. he didn’t call her poison, he quoted others as having said that. i sure hope this helps. Peace, in His love, joe
——

I wish to point out that what is chosen to be said by anyone is their choice, they cannot hide behind the idea that someone else said it.

typo: I am praying for you.

Cheryl,

WOW! That must have hurt a lot.

Here are some things I hope I would be able to do if I were ever in your shoes:
1. Remember that Jesus and co. were shamed for our sake, you have good company.
2. Forgive Matt as soon as possible. This means not wishing retribution. Not wishing to settle the debt.
3. Act redemptively, seeking restoration. This may include getting the tape of the show and confronting Matt, asking for a public apology and then following Mat 18 but always with a motive of restoration.
4. Finally, let go and let God work. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict someone of their sin.

I am paying for you.

I am not Canadian nor do I play one on TV. It would seem that your efforts to have 2 organizations is the way to go. Perhaps talk to some other religious charitable orgs and see what they do. I have no idea what the laws are, but it may be the case that doing some things cannot be considered charitable.

I think you are doing a good work and want to stand with you.

Thanks for the compliments. I am still learning how to be respectful in the face of disrespect. I do find it amazing that believers can treat other believers with such disrespect. I am willing to put up with it for 2 reasons:
1. The disrespect shown egalitarians is NOTHING compared to what some martyrs of the faith went thru.
2. I have hopes that God can use me in some small way to let some people doubt they are right and become more egalitarian. That is what God did with me, he treated me gentle when I was blind.

I am reading some of the books about the 1850s defense of slavery in the south. Of course, I am also reading about 50 other books also. Amazon has some, now that you know they exist. Which one is best for you depends on many factors, some are heavier than others.

It is a somewhat tricky question to ask how many apostles are found in the NT. There are quite a few.

Also, I find it best to think of it as a ministry, it is the ministry of being sent out (from a congregation, like a missionary). Many people do this today, yes they are special, but an apostle is not so special that they are only found in the NT.

Perhaps the term “theological liberalism” had not yet been invented, but many of the arguments use the EXACT same wording, except replace negro/slave with woman/wife. It is really quite illuminating. The slave holders even pointed out that Eph 5-6 was one teaching unit and that if you “changed the plain meaning” of the verses on slaves, then next thing would be to “change the plain meaning” of the verses on wives. The unstated subtext was “Did the abolitionists really want uppity wives?’

One can know the Bible and not be a Christian, some atheists know the Bible better than most believers, the better to try to have them not believe it.

The key is having a relationship with God. But the question is how does one know that they are not deceived about what God wants? This is where the Bible comes in. However, tradition can negate the Bible, so that what it actually teaches can be misunderstood. We can try to use the Bible to justify sin. We can take some text out of context and misinterpret it and not even guess we are doing this.

So what can be done? We are to act in faith based on our current understanding, always being willing to learn more and change if necessary. (I have changed my understanding on some things after study.) And trust God to guide us into all truth.

“Theological liberalism” is the bogeyman of a believer that does not want to change. This is what the slaveholders accused the abolitionists of, in the terminology of the day. This is what the kings accused the Parlimentarians of being.

It is true that some abolitionists were not believers, as well as some Parlimentarians, but this is a big “so what!” as some slaveholders were not believers as well as some kings.

Beware the person who brings up a bogeyman into a discussion.

In my understanding Matthias is the 12th apostle of the 12. Paul and others in the NT called apostles are not one of the 12. Junia was an apostle, but there are a few ways to alter the translation so that it does not seem that way, if you do not believe a woman can be an apostle.

I read “Beyond Sex Roles” about 6 years ago. It was a VERY bewildering experience as much of it simply did not click with me, but he did make a few points that I could not answer from my worldview, and I kept storing those up. Eventually I had a paradigm shift which solved all the puzzles I had stored up. But notice I needed to be faithful to store up puzzles I did not understand and, even more importantly, to continue to study something that might challenge my current worldview.

Many people read authors they already agree with, at least for the most part. They are, in effect, simply confirming their already established worldview. I find it is very important to try to know the worldview of any author I am reading.

P.S. I did marry that woman. She has taught me a lot and continues to do so.

Thank you for the kind words, I do want to be a blessing. And you have blessed me also with your insights. I am always seeking a better understanding.

This is a sketch of how I connect the dots, you might see it differently.

For the specific ministry of evangelist, they can be expected to be able to teach the gospel to a non-believer. They might also be able to teach more, but my take is that would be the minimum.

An evangelist is one of the 5-fold ministries as I see it. I understand these to be the varieties of possible ministry gifts of the elders/overseers in a church congregation, notice that not all of them are a pastor, there are other varieties. And one of the qualifications of an elder is to be able to teach, per 1 Tim and Titus, this is the main distinction between an elder and a deacon, both are servant-leaders, but a deacon is not necessarily expected to be able to teach. Some deacons might teach and some might be preparing to become elders later in life. But it is perfectly fine if a deacon has no desire to teach at all.

The ministry gifts are gifts of the Holy Spirit. Leadership in the church is appointed by having hands laid on one by the current leaders and includes a recognition of the ministry gift (and perhaps asking for more). So the 2 are closely coupled together, but not identical, because someone can be given a ministry gift, yet the local leaders not recognize it, for example, if they do not believe a woman can be an elder or a deacon.

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

Here are some of my understandings:

1. A crucial difference between an office and a leadership ministry gift is that an office exists regardless if someone is actually in the office, which any spiritual gift (including leadership ministry gifts) ONLY exists when someone has that gift. For example, the office of President of the USA existed even when President Kennedy was shot but there was no actual President until Johnson was shown in.

2. The 12 can be said to have an office, in that when Judas left, there needed to be 12 of them (to be 12) and so another was chosen. But when James died, no one was selected to replace him as one of the 12, as he died in the faith.

3. I have heard that the lots MIGHT have been votes by the 11. Even if it was a random device, the Bible says “The lot is in the hands of the Lord.” so for me, the question is whether the 11 did it in faith, and I believe they did.

4. There are many others in the NT who are called apostles besides the 12 and Paul, none of these are said to be in an office. I do not see any offices in the new covenant besides Jesus as High Priest and the 12, which needed to be 12 to map to the 12 tribes of Israel.

5. One is given a gift by God, such as being a apostle (often called a missionary today), prophet (sometimes called a preacher), evangelist, pastor and teacher. My understanding is that these are the teaching ministers, in the sense that they are all expected to be able to teach.

6. When someone is recognized with the above ministry (not office), the existing leadership (possibly non-local as in missionary) can lay hands on them and appoint them as an elder/overseer of the congregation.

7. God can give another gift to anyone whenever he wishes.

8. I cannot find anyone called Apostle John or Prophet Agabus in the NT. What I can find is John, an apostle, or Agabus, a prophet. The point is that I look with skepticism on titles and look at what someone does.

9. If someone is given a ministry gift, do not try to force fit it into another ministry gift. If you are given the gift of being an evagelist, do not try to be a pastor, for example, as it can just lead to frustration. Accept whatever gift you have been given and use it to serve the body of Christ.

I think there may be a bit of a double standard going on over there. I have noticed that some seem to not really add much to the discussion, except to be supportive of Matt and denigrating of those that do not agree with Matt. My guess is that if one responds in kind, one sinks to their level and would be (validly) banned for forum abuse, but they turn a blind eye to such things when the poster is “on their side.” in that they give them the benefit of the doubt, they mean well, etc.

There is an Aesop’s fable about a fox with its tail cut off (I think) who tries to get other foxes to cut off their tails so they are all on the same level of pain. I think it can be VERY shattering of one’s worldview when a woman speaks with Biblical authority, if one is told that this cannot happen.

In my understanding, the tree of knowledge OGAE did NOT have seed in it. God in Gen 1:29 said the humans could eat of every tree with seed in its fruit. Ergo, the TOKOGAE did not have seed in its fruit. Seed shows life.