Happy Promise Keeper

Cheryl, my refutation of the Phoebe argument was directed towards Don. He opened the door, I simply responded. Your point should be made to your brother Don, not me. Something tells me you won’t be lowering the hammer on him, though …….

Phoebe is a very obscure Bible character, mentioned only once in Romans 16:1-2. Even if Phoebe is considered a “deaconess” instead of a “servant,” that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. “Able to teach” is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders / bishops / deacons are described as the “husband of one wife,” “a man whose children believe,” and “men worthy of respect.” Clearly the indication is that these qualifications refer to men. In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders / bishops / deacons.

If you purport to raise up Phoebe as some example of a teacher over men, Scripture simply doesn’t support it. Egals try vainly to elevate certain female Bible characters to positions they never had. Junia/Junias and Phoebe are prime examples.

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.

I simply don’t have time to hop and skip from one Forum on Timothy to the other. Badgering me to do so won’t cut it. Cheryl, you are incorrectly assuming I haven’t investigated your agenda. I have, as my time has permitted. You are in error, sister. I do believe you are well meaning. I do believe you have a seeking heart. I also must be direct and tell you there is deception in your teaching. I’m not going to use my valuable time to go through your teachings and nitpick them to death. I don’t have to ….. and I won’t be goaded into it. You seem to think you are somehow “owed” a response from CBMW on your terms and within your timeframe. They owe you nothing. You were blessed to have some correspondence from them to begin with, Cheryl. I would advise you to let the issue die and let go of your resentment. Turn it over to the Lord and let it go.

Jennifer …… to sue your own term of endearment …… Hi, Hon!!!!

No, you are mischaracterizing me when you broadly state, “You seriously believe that women are restricted from preaching God’s Holy Word because of their gender??”

No, Jennifer, I will simply share with you what the whole context of the Word states that women can do …. and SHOULD be doing ….. instead of seeking to usurp male authority in church and family. It is my contention that if our ladies would focus on the things they CAN and SHOULD do, they simply wouldn’t have time to fixate on things they CAN’T do.

I Tim. 2:11-15

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But womenwill be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

I Tim. 5: 9-16
9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
16If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

Titus 1:5-9

5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 2:3-5

3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

Jennifer, please show me how a woman can possibly qualify as an elder/bishop/overseer/pastor??? You can’t, at least without a faulty exegesis of the Bible. We know from The Principle that women may not teach men in the church or home nor have authority over men in the church and home.

Other than these two categories — that is, (1) teaching the man and (2) having authority over the man — the New Testament reveals an extensive record of godly women ministering in a wide variety of spiritual gifts, ministries, and activities, for example —

• Prayer ministries of many kinds

• Prophecy, and by association, other gifts of the Spirit

• Older women teaching younger women

• Financial support of ministries

• Service ministries

• Help ministries

• “Working very hard in the Lord”

• Witnessing

• Good works

• Helping the poor

• Hospitality

• Assisting her husband in sharing the Lord and His truths with people

• Being “mothers” to many in the church

• Being loving, godly wives

• Raising their children in the Christian faith

• Teaching other children, for example, in Sunday School

• Testifying

• Specific applications of these many opportunities actually open the door to an almost limitless variety of specific ministry activities for women, consistent with the Scriptural principles shared in this study.

Again, I ask the question. If women would spend their time doing what they CAN and SHOULD be doing, how could they possibly have the time to invest in things they CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be doing???

Sorry, I made a boo-boo. Junia is the most logical translation of the name, taking into account The Principle of the Preponderance of Scripture. The feminine Junias is, IMO, the wrong application.

Once again, no Scripture and mere conjecture and opinion and emotions. This is what I usually run into on these feminist theologian/egalitarian sites. I had hoped this one would have been better ….. so far I am very disappointed. I will be shaking the dust off my feet very quickly here if you can’t do better.

Cheryl, unfortunately for you ….. CBMW owes you no further contacts. The same pertains to any of us here, including me. I wouldn’t feel badly at all if I submitted something to CBMW without a response. It’s the nature of the media beast, Cheryl, to rarely get a response to an inquiry …… especially from such a broad (pardon the pun, no harm intended!) ministry with so many facets. Have you thought that perhaps they know they would be wasting their time responding to one with such a narrow agenda? Why should they waste valuable staff time and assets to respond to just one person? They have no obligation to you, sister.

Don, nice try but you have offered a weak response to my questions. You simply must face the fact that had Jesus wanted ANY females in positions of church authority ….. and with the large number of females within His circle to choose from …. He surely would have appointed at least one of them as a Church Father. He did not. Nor did He offer ANY teachings whatsoever that would have permitted it. He also didn’t model the appointing of females to church authority. Nor did Paul. Nor did Peter. Nor did Timothy. Nor did any of the founding FATHERS of the faith. It simply isn’t in the Word, brother. Nada! Conversely, the preponderance of Scripture conclusively proves that females were not in positions of church or family authority over men ….. again, the only caveat being some OT references where men abdicated and women were permitted some ministrations of leadership. The NT has no references to female authority in this regard. It DOES contain numerous references prohibiting it!

Your comment about Junias …… which is the most accurate translation …. not the feminine Junia …. simply can’t hold water. Here is a balanced look at the Junia issue ……… http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Articles/A-Female-Apostle

There is wide disagreement among even the most noted theologians as to whether or not this person was a Junia or a Junias. That fact alone should give us just cause to NOT use this person as an approval of female authority in the church or family. It’s not that we throw it out. We can’t, because it is inspired Scripture. However, we should NEVER base a complete doctrinal/theological stance upon only one obscure verse. If we do so, we open ourselves up to error ….. as the fems and egals have done ….. and we close ourselves up to the full counsel of the Word. We deny what in theological circles is know as “The Principle of the Preponderance of Scripture”. The Bible taken as a whole entity. So, we must then take this Junia issue and apply The Principle to it.

This, then, takes us back to my original three questions ….. which no one here except for Don has attempted to tackle ….. and he did it in error.

Please show me where Jesus appointed any female Disciples.
Please show me where a female was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.
Please show me where a female was permitted to be an Apostle.

Please show me where Jesus appointed any female Disciples.
Please show me where a female was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.
Please show me where a female was permitted to be an Apostle. (Note: If you try and use Junias I can easily refute it).

The Bible shows a clear difference between giftedness and authorization. Spiritual giftedness in a Christian woman does not confer upon her authority to lead and teach men, with the only caveat being when men abdicate and then women step up and lead out of necessity. We see this principle shown in the OT but the Apostle Paul laid the clear foundation for it in the Pauline Epistles. Jesus also never permitted women to usurp the authority of His disciples. I have seen some egalitarians go so far as to denigrate Paul’s teachings and blaspheme the Word by claiming that Paul “did not have the same authority or annointing that Jesus had and therefore his words cannot be considered divine or as pertinent as Jesus’s”. This is in clear violation of even the most basic Biblical foundations.

2 Tim. 3:14-17
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Paul’s testimony says, “For I would have you know that the gospel which was preached by me, is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:11-12). This is an emphatic statement which insists that Paul’s message is completely divine in nature. He received it as a direct revelation from Christ, not as a tradition handed down from the past.

If we say that we believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, then we must also accept the authority of those whom He sent. We must accept and believe the entire New Testament as our final rule of faith and practice, or else we call in question the authority of the apostles and even the authority of our Lord Jesus. We can’t have it both ways. We must conclude that Paul’s teachings were every bit as authoritative as those of Jesus, as well as the other founding FATHERS of the faith.

So far, all I have seen is opinion and conjecture ….. along with the usual character assasinations which point to desperation. No Scripture, which is very telling. Some of you see it as a kind of “defeat” for CBMW to not respond to Cheryl’s DVD’s in exactly the way she demanded of them. Sorry, but an organization as large as CBMW simply does not have the time or resources to respond to every inquiry. Their ministry is very broad, as compared to sites such as this with only one basic thrust. If you check their site thoroughly, you will see many refutations offered to many different people who have questioned them or written articles promoting feminist theology. I wouldn’t take it as a slight that CBMW didn’t act exactly the way some here would have desired. Can you imagine the way they must be flooded with inquiries from feminist theologians/egalitarians??? How can they possibly respond to them all? Simply put, they can’t. No one with such a far reaching ministry could ….. and it is unrealistic and perhaps a bit prideful to expect them to drop everything and automatically respond to every single inquiry. Do you think the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association responds to every contact? Any large ministry? I would think not, as common sense would dictate. Your answers lie in simply reading at CBMW as they refute the egalitarian error.

Pinklight, God created men and women equal in value and personhood but different as far as the roles in church and home. This is modeled throughout the Scriptures. The ONLY times we see women elevated to authoritarian roles over men in Scripture was when men abdicated their God-given roles and judgement fell. This was mainly in the Old Testament. It was considered a dishonor for women to assume roles they were not designed for and usually we see those women TAKING the role instead of being APPOINTED to the role. It is the same today.

If women were to simply humble themselves and follow what they CAN do in Scripture, they would have no time to assume roles they CANNOT assume through the Word. Really, I see this issue as more of a failing of men than I do any “divine” raising up of women. When men fail or abdicate, women must necessarily rise up. What we are seeing in today’s church are too many males but not enough men.

Hi, Cheryl. Thank you for your response. Actually, the misunderstanding and misapplication of the complementarian belief is what is unkind here. Egalitarianism is not taught nor was it modeled in Scripture. It takes an extreme twisting of the Word to buy into the egalitarian belief.

Here is an example of that extremism, as quoted by Paula …..

“Yes, we can indeed lay much blame for such things on CBMW. They give legitimacy to male supremacy, and people trust them. Their teachings have consequences, including the silencing of women’s spiritual gifts and the turning of many from the gospel because it is alleged that God created all women as the inferiors of all men. Jesus said that Sodom and Gomorrah would stand up in the last days and condemn towns that had rejected him, and I believe the world will likewise stand up and condemn the silencing and suppression of women as taught by CBMW.”

I challenge any of you here to quote anything from CBMW to prove that women are being somehow “suppressed” and “the turning away of many from the gospel” is caused by CBMW. Please use Scripture to support your opinion, or in the interest of honesty, just come right out and say that your opinion is just that ….. an opinion. Please be aware that I am fully prepared to respond to any argument that sets itself up against the Word of God, though. I will not allow anyone to manipulate the Word to accomodate the agenda here. I do this in Christ’s love.

It’s a shame that there are so many lonely and bitter people in this place. So much deception here! I am deeply sorry that so many of you have been hurt so badly. You cannot find the answer to your confusion through evangelical feminism. The answer is in Jesus, and in Him alone. Don’t forsake basic, Biblical Chistianity for the lies of the enemy. Don’t be weakwilled women …. and men.

Blessings!

HPK