Jim

I know that this has got some age on it now, but it has taken me a bit of time to muddle through the resources everyone mentioned I sample. I have had the opportunity to look through most of the information and translations that you folks have generously steered me toward. I also took some sites/information given to me by folks who are on the opposite side of the fence from your perspective…not to be difficult mind you; but to try to see why they are so sure in their beliefs as well. What I have found is that both sides of this argument are stating as near fact translations that are in direct conflict with one another. One side says an ancient word is feminine, the other says masculine. Both argue without a doubt that if the text is the way they say it is, then there can be no mistake in it’s meaning. This leaves me in a very confusing position. I am not an un-intelligent person. I made a perfect score on my ACT in reading years ago, and I have both a bachelors degree and a masters degree in education. But with all my skills and gifts in the realm of reading and comprehension it boils down to who do you believe. I have spent the last few weeks trying very hard to discern which set of truths is the truth, and I am no closer now than I was. Everything you folks have shared with me, makes absolute sense in the framework of correct translation. But these points are equally proven based on the alternative translations that were presented in other forums. Perhaps credentials is the tiebreaker, I’m not sure, but I do feel I must offer my sincere appreciation for the time and effort you have put forth in helping me understand your point of view. You have alerted me to the idea that simply believing the concordance of my bible can be the wrong way to go. These lapses and disagreements in translations…do they make you believe that our Bible has been changed/altered over the years based on historical events/cultures until now it cannot be considered infallible? I know the selling point to every new translation is that it is supposedly the most historically accurate of any…but that cannot be true for each version. How does a “normal” (not that anyone who knows me would use that word to describe me) person pick up a bible and teach his daughters in truth? My ex-wife has belonged to five different denominations in the past 5 years and now professes to be catholic. I don’t judge her for that, but I do feel like I need to have a firm grasp of what is true so that I can be a consistent source of information for my girls as they grow up and ask questions about the nature of Christ. I feel more lost now than when I began. I appreciate your insight so far, I just don’t know where to go from here. I hope you all have a good week.

he he he, um didn’t see the link to the right…duh. Sorry about that, I figured you had covered this many times. To be honest though I have looked at others arguments on both sides of this issue countless times, I think maybe the atmosphere of the blog has helped it sink in. I appreciate you taking the time to go through it again, it must be difficult to restate your position near constantly as new people flow into your circle of influence. When I read the other sides arguments, they also seem to be very compelling…so this is what I know to be true for now…I’m a guy and I have learned something from you…I respect and acknowledge the fact that you know more than me, and I appreciate your desire to share your knowledge with me. I do not think we have sinned in our conversation. The logical conclusion based on our interactions proves at least part of your point. I will look at your stuff on the right before I bother you any further. Again I thank you for taking to the time to walk me through it and sharing your perspective with me. In the end, I don’t care who’s right, I just want the truth. My babies just turned four, and I want to provide for them the most biblically correct answers to their questions…I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

Thanks for taking the time to address my thoughts and perceptions. I think my major hang-up in this is a simple one, and I am sure one you have dealt with on many discussions previously. I tried to read and understand the debate you had previously with the man in regard to what the bible says or doesn’t say about the roles of women. Honestly it was a little over my head, so you may be repeating yourself in regard to me, and apologize if it seems I’m a waste of time but the verse in Timothy, well actually that entire second chapter…why is it not saying what it seems to be saying? I have looked at every piece of scripture you have quoted (and I appreciate you including it as opposed to referencing it) and I can see your points with every one…but that chapter in Timothy plagues me. Even with the sum of all of the conclusions and verses, it just seems to be so cut and dried about this. You know I’m hear to learn, I’m not trying to persuade, I’m actually trying to be persuaded. Help me see that verse differently than it appears to be. I don’t want to be a stumbling block for anyone. Frankly my girls are the only women on the planet who give two cents what I think about God and religion anyway. I want to do what God would have me to do, and right now I’m not sure what that is.

I am not knowledgeable enough to debate you folks on the different flavors of who believes what, but I do see something that has not been proposed so I would like to enter it into the conversation with the hopes that you will be gentle if I am completely wrong. The essence of this argument is the belief that God does Gift Women with the “Gift” of being a pastor/preacher. I agree with the statements to the nature of God and his nature does not include taunting or torture, however taunting and torture only take place if the gift is in fact bestowed. This is a topic that is very confusing for me, I’ll admit I don’t have as much experience debating it as most on this site, but I can’t help but believe that the bible is reasonably clear, and consistent in it’s discussion on this. I think that we are all limited in how we can serve God, in different ways. I can never be a mother, although I have many of the “gifts” that a mother posses. God expects us to live within his limits as a measure of obedience. I don’t believe God gives us gifts we can’t use, I think we sometimes use the gifts he gives us inefficiently. You can list the successful female “pastors” as evidence of the gift, but the other side of that coin could be a woman who would have been even more successful if they applied their gift in a more obedient way. There is no way of knowing. It has nothing to do with intelligence, or abilities…it comes down to doing what The Lord Says…so I ask you, if the Lord spoke to you clearly and told you that he doesn’t want women as pastors…could you obey? My next question is how much clearer does he need to be then what he has already said? Pride has nearly destroyed me more than once, and knowledge of God and the bible fills us with a pride like no other. Being limited on how we are allowed to share that knowledge I think is not torture, it is obedience. I hope I haven’t made too many people upset, I read this blog often, I have twin baby girls, and I don’t want to “oppress” them or steer them wrong. It just seems much more a matter of giving in to him and working in his plan using his gifts, his way.

When I read the Word of God, I trust the Holy Spirit for clarification when questions arise. Regarding “women in ministry”, I’m convinced from the Word of God that God uses women as He uses men in the teaching and ministering of His Word. However, I do believe from the complementarian view on women in leadership roles where they can exercise “authority” over men that they are instructed to be under the directives of male leadership solely from the standpoint of this God given role. It’s not a matter of “equality” since God is no respecter of man (or women) but from the Biblical reference of roles as biblically directed for each of us, that that should only be in a controlled setting where men are involved. Nevertheless, men can greatly benefit from women’s ministries when they desire to listen in and learn. But, the intent of the woman’s ministry is not to exercise “authority” over men but under the Holy Spirit’s empowerment to bless those who hear the Word of God whether
women or men. Kay Arthur, Elizabeth Elliott, Nancy DeMoss, Beth Moore and many others would share this view, I believe, as their ministries are primarily to women but men benefit greatly from their ministries.
In essense, headship regarding roles for the Church from the Apostolic writings of Paul is significant but God-given ministries shared by all who are called for whatever purpose should be in the context of His order.
“For God is a God of order; not confusion”