Yes, it really is a wake-up call to be thankful!

Thanks Cheryl! How you “northerners” put up with this snow and ice is beyond me. I did a lot reading by flashlight.

Cheryl & All,
Thanks for your prayers – we got our power back last night!

Mark,

Let’s talk about context, context, context for 1 Timothy 5. Does your church congregation/denomination “Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work. But refuse to enroll younger widows” and instruct them to remarry? If not, why doesn’t your fellowship uphold these?
And if your congregation does uphold to these instructions, who performs this ministry?

Please look at the context. At the beginning of 1 Timothy 5:1-2 presbutiro is used as an adjective for both men and women. Followed immediately by instructions for dealing with an established order of ministry within the church of enrolling widows. Who do you think was performing the ministry to these widows? Might it be the elders just mentioned in the previous sentence? Or do you think it is someone Paul never even mentions who is doing this ministering to widows? Paul then after giving all the instructions is still speaking about the presbutiro in verses 17-20. Or do you think Paul just lost his train of thought and wandered off writing about widows and then went back to writing about the presbutiro?

Please look at the context, the society and people being addressed as well in 1 Timothy and the other epistles. We know false teachers had infiltrated the church. False teachers made their teaching a matter of friction and battling over words (1 Tim.6:3-5) and they are driven by greed (6:5-10). Religions in the Roman Empire included the mystery religions that claimed to give secret knowledge to those who went through their initiations and became members. For instance, in Crete young, married women tended to be left on their own after marriage. A woman would leave her father’s home and move into her husband and his family’s home. There she was never quite trusted because she was brought into the family, and could still have more loyalty to her birth family. These women were separated from the women they grew up with, and thrown into houses with women who never trusted them, let alone helped them learn how to be wives and mothers. Alcoholism was rampant among young women in Crete who could not handle the pressures and stress of married life. These women were also easy victims for religious charlatans. Secret sects along with the priests of Cybele would insinuate themselves into the domestic sphere through these women, and several made a good living ripping these women off. I’m sure you’ve read in history class that Crete was known for its lack of morals in all areas of life.

In Titus 2:3 Paul instructs Titus, the pastor of Crete: “Likewise, tell the older women to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good.” The Greek word used for these older women is ‘presbutidas’.
These elders are instructed “to teach what is good.”Teach is from ‘didaskolos’ which is the word Paul uses to describe teaching the Gospel. Although the instruction goes on to tell them to train the younger women to love their husbands and children, besides presuposition, there is no reason to believe that the younger women are the only ones in Titus congregation they taught. But the young women who were now part of the church had no teaching in morality or how to be wives and mothers. So Paul encouraged the female elders to focus their teaching on helping these younger women learn how to cope with all the responsibilities of being a wife and mother in Crete. This teaching probably included how to fend off the charalatans that preyed on them and their families. Paul wanted these young women to know the truth of the Gospel.
The presbutidas would likely have been older since the Jews would not consider someone to be an elder until the age of 60. After menopause a women had more freedom in the religious and public sphere she was no longer unclean, and she was considered wise because of the many years she had lived. We see this in Anna at the temple in Luke 2 she lived at the temple and prayed everyday. She was probably also a teacher there as well. “Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.” vs.38. Notice that Anna “spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption” All, includes men. But you insist that after the Resurrection she would be in sin for doing this? But, why? Mary Magdalene was told by Jesus Himself to preach the Good News to males after the Resurrection.

Mark wrote:”On top of that why should we translate that gunaikos means ‘deaconess’ rather than women or wives?”

Now please consider Phoebe.
“I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae, so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well” (Romans 16:1-2).
Paul highly commended and respected Phoebe. He called her a “sister,” “deacon,” and “benefactor” to the church at Cenchreae as well as a sister and benefactor to Paul. The notable thing about diakonos or “deacon” being used to describe Phoebe is that it is the masculine form of the word used to describe a woman. It is the SAME word Paul uses when he calls Timothy and Titus “servants” or “deacons” of their respective churches. Another thing that makes this phrase odd is that Phoebe is called the “deacon of the church of Cenchreae.” This is the only place in the New Testament where ‘diakonos’ is followed by the name of a specific congregation. This is the only place linking a specific person’s ministry with a specific church.

lmb,
Thanks for bringing out these points for me – as I am busy battening down the hatches here in prep for bad weather. Mark continues to ignore my first sentence (“It appears to me that Mark continually overlooks the fact that in 1 Timothy 5:1-2 ‘presbutiro’ is used for both men and women – translated as “older men” and “older women.”)

*Off Topic
We have just had a State of Emergency issued here due to an ice storm. I would really appreciate your prayers that lives and electrical power will not be lost. dv – Thank You

Mark,
Have you bowed out of our discussion on the posts: Equal In Value and Worth? and Using Paul’s Authority?
I replied to your questions for me and have been waiting patiently… only to find you comment here instead…

Cheryl,
This reminds me of Mark’s comments regarding your post “Does God Torment Women?” He shocked me and several other readers by dismissing the fact that Jesus Himself made Mary Magdalene the first to tell the Good News of His resurrection to the apostles. He wishes to dismiss the fact that the same word is used in 1 Tim.5 for women as well as men.
I realize you’ve been trying to help Mark understand that “teacher” is a gift and “elder” is a work that one can aspire to. But he seems to have the two so intertwined that he cannot consider them separately.

Mark wrote: “but yet Paul says 2 chapters later in 5:17 that ‘elders who rule well are worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in preaching and teaching’. So the assumption is not all will teach yet they should be ‘able to teach’.
See the difference? IS this why you don’t like discussing elders because of Pauls correlation between them shepharding and preaching and teaching and that he only instructs men to take this resposibilty.”

Cheryl,
It appears to me that Mark continually overlooks the fact that in 1 Timothy 5:1-2 ‘presbutiro’ is used for both men and women – translated as “older men” and “older women.” In verse 17 the plural form, ‘presbutiboi’, is used of those who preach and teach in the church, and Paul tells Timothy that they are worthy of double honor. There is no reason to believe that this group was comprised of only men, especially since Paul had just used both the masculine and feminine form of the adjective in the first two verses of chapter 5.
So, ‘teacher’ and ‘elder’, whether apart or together, can be either men or women.

I’d like to offer the term ‘servant example’ instead of ‘servant leader’ – since we all have One Leader.

“When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.” John 13:12-17

Mark wrote: “I have to say that i don’t know why you dodge discussions on eldership. I know you say we are discussing gifts, but it seems silly to discuss gifts that are enormously important for the church without discussing leadership responsibilities. Is it because the two don’t mesh with your view? Are gifts a safer argument for you? Since often gifts and natural abilities are so often confused.”

Where do “natural abilities” originate? Isn’t every ability in us from God? Nature has no power to give abilities.
“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.” Ps.139

Good deal, Cheryl 🙂 … and I’ll second what Lin said.

“What is Apollos, really? Or what is Paul? Servants through whom you came to believe, and each of us in the ministry the Lord gave us. I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused it to grow. So neither the one who plants counts for anything, nor the one who waters, but God who causes the growth.” 1 Cor. 3

Why do complementarians/hierarchists want to place personal authority and obedience to themselves (or what they term their “servant leadership”) in these passages?

“SO why are you inconsistent. Why can Paul (or Timothy) have authority and yet be a great example of a servant leader, yet no such thing can be true now?”
Mark,
Somehow, it appears to me now that we are trying to compare apples to oranges. It seems to me that maybe you are not understanding what Cheryl has written – as in her use of the word ‘authority’. It’s not Paul’s own personal authority obtained from God. It is the authority of God’s Word. The authority is God’s. To quote Cheryl: “Paul wasn’t taking authority over people but authority over error and false doctrine.”

Jesus said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

Noticed here what it does *not* say – it does *not* say,
“You have all the authority now. Go and make disciples of all nations taking authority over them, baptizing them and teaching them to obey you.”

Before replying to you again, I am going to wait for you to read the post Cheryl linked in comment #24.
Also, I would really appreciate it if you would list some of the books, tapes, teachers, etc…from which you have learned about this “servant leadership.” Perhaps it would help us understand your view if we could read or hear one of your teachers.

Mark,
O.k., I think I see what you are getting to.
Does being more knowledgable of Christian doctrine (or being an authority any subject) put one in a position to reign in hierarchy over those who know less? Isn’t it the responsibility of every Christian to correct error when we encounter it?

Do we let error go on because we are not pastors or elders?

Mark,
Where in there did I say anything about Cheryl’s exegesis of Paul’s authority?

Mark,
Here are my last couple of comments – is this what you are asking about?

I am not” definately some of the most overlooked words in hierarchy world – especially that “I”… hmmm.
Somehow it’s been twisted into “thus saith the Lord for now and for all time to come.”

gengwall, I’m glad you brought that out.
Greg, I have thought for some time that Paul is majored on more than the direct teaching/Words of Jesus in many circles. It’s really astonishing how many of the things Jesus said and did that must be overlooked/over-ridden to justify hierarchy among believers. Like for instance, Matthew 20 – “You know that the rulers of the heathen have power over them, and the leaders have complete authority. 26 This, however, is not the way it shall be among you. If one of you wants to be great, he must be the servant of the rest; 27 and if one of you wants to be first, he must be your slave– 28 like the Son of Man, who did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life to redeem many people.”

Praying.

gengwall, I’m glad you brought that out.

Greg, I have thought for some time that Paul is majored on more than the direct teaching/Words of Jesus in many circles. It’s really astonishing how many of the things Jesus said and did that must be overlooked/over-ridden to justify hierarchy among believers. Like for instance, Matthew 20 – “You know that the rulers of the heathen have power over them, and the leaders have complete authority. 26 This, however, is not the way it shall be among you. If one of you wants to be great, he must be the servant of the rest; 27 and if one of you wants to be first, he must be your slave– 28 like the Son of Man, who did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life to redeem many people.”

“I am not” definately some of the most overlooked words in hierarchy world – especially that “I”… hmmm.
Somehow it’s been twisted into “thus saith the Lord for now and for all time to come.”

“Cheryl wrote:

“The witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection who were personally ordained as preachers of the good news by Jesus Himself are not the same as those who think they have special authority because they stand behind a pulpit. When we compare Jesus’ personal ordination of individuals to a non-biblical pulpit, honestly there is no comparison at all.”

That is great.”

I’ll second that!

Jewel,
I don’t think you really have a problem with Christianity, but with those who choose to interpret His Word for their own faulty biased reasons.
If “authorities”, are not in fact really in authority but under THE Authority of God just like those under them, this levels the playing field and equalizes all the parties being addressed. And if everyone is addressed equally as a person in Christ, ultimately is no hierarchy among them.
The only distinctions would be those perceived by someone’s interpretation.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” according to Gal.3:28.

I hope you continue to read Cheryl’s blog.

“All right, already!

Somebody say something!

It’s hard to lurk here when you all are so quite!”

Mara,
I know what you mean! Haven’t had time to comment myself – husband had a minor surgery right before Christmas, throw in traveling and then my son-in-law’s father died suddenly two days after Christmas…it’s “been”

“The Bible says that the first will be last and the last will be first. Will those who placed themselves as “first” and “foremost” here on this earth find themselves in a lesser position of honor in heaven? I really don’t know. But I wonder about it.”
Cheryl,
I understand that to mean that in the Kingdom of God there will be no first and last – that God does as He pleases with each one. (Matt. 20)

As for MacArthur, how in the world does he get around Matt. 22: “Jesus answered them, “How wrong you are! It is because you don’t know the Scriptures or God’s power. For when the dead rise to life, they will be like the angels in heaven and will not marry.”??

“Jesus points out the importance in not giving to the written word of God more time than it deserves, in relation to the Word made flesh (John 5:39-40).”
Dave,
Good point. It generally seems that they are more interested in rule/role keeping and have entirely missed a relationship with Christ. Clearly, Hebrews 11 tells us the faith relationship with God is what it has always been about – it never was and still is not about keeping rules or roles. “By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace. And what more shall I say?”

“We have lost our first Love.”
Lin,
I couldn’t agree more! “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ and ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ There is no other commandment more important than these two.”
And what is more loving than sharing the Good News?
Jesus didn’t complicate this a bunch of rules and regulations.

“The statement was in response to the culture. Which is interesting if you think that one through.”

Lin,
Yes, when it seems they have bought the old time Hollywood myth of the family at home behind the white picket fence – Man and wife with a son for him and a daughter for her, ahhh…the American Dream.

But where does that leave our sister locked up alone in foreign prison cell because of her faith? Too bad God can’t speak to her there – sure would be comforting, but, sorry, she lacks the required ‘organs’ for ‘hearing’.

-)

:-#

Starke wrote:”Let me be straightforward. I don’t know how much time I am able to interact with these comments. I’m glad Sue offered you my contact info, in order that I may respond to some of these”

Time and time again comps seem to be too busy for answering questions or helping wayward wandering brothers and sisters in the Faith. This just baffles me. Aren’t we supposed to be reaching out to those wandering from the fold.
“What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?”