Paula

My first question is, “What happened to the “plain reading” hermeneutic? Can we use this extrapolation approach with 1 Timothy 2?

My second question is, “Regardless of who the serpent approached and why (scripture never says why), what excuse can they concoct for Adam’s standing there silently while the whole beguiling went down? If he was a leader, he was as useless as an umbrella made of cheesecloth. He showed the spine of a jellyfish. He was a wuss. Did I mention Adam dropped the ball?

I agree, the reason so many people fill these gaps as they do is because they have not heard any other view, or such views have been brushed off by the “scholars” they depend upon. They trust their leaders and are taught not to question them since they have credentials.

This sort of narrow vision has been a problem on many topics for generations. We tend to cloister ourselves in safe havens where contrary opinions on disputable matters are never heard. The leaders spoon-feed the followers and never teach them how to reason on their own, because many leaders fear losing their following.

I do know there are exceptions, but by and large there does seem to be a connection. It would make an interesting poll, if done professionally.

Awesome! Now watch some comedies, and realize that just being able to blog and make DVDs that have helped people has been a blessing in itself and a future reward for you.

Katherine Bushnell believed that in the last days women would be free to use their gifts and take the lead in spreading the gospel, and I believe we are now seeing this. Outside the walls of “the church”, yes, but in the world. We were always supposed to be “salt”, and I like to remind people that you don’t dip your food in salt, you shake the salt over the food. Likewise, we are to go out into the world and preach the gospel, not endlessly repeat it to the saved.

So here we all are, rejected by our own brothers and sisters, forced to go out into the world by persecution– just as God did with the first century believers who otherwise would have stayed in Jerusalem. Take heart that you are part of this exodus, following the will of God, and that women are being freed through your efforts.

I can only guess it’s a hardening of hearts, a preparation for the harvest. God is exposing the hidden sins of the leaders. Yet even now we see that people prefer to hide their heads in the sand and refuse to think for themselves. It’s “the emperor’s new clothes” again, Orwell’s groupthink, and the sheeple have been groomed and indoctrinated in it for generations. I honestly believe that just as some people choose daily to strive toward the goal, others choose daily to silence their minds and turn themselves into doormats because it seems so lowly and humble. But in fact it’s just cowardice.

As someone astutely put it, these ego maniacs have forgotten that “the rocks would cry out” if people failed in what God has decreed to accomplish. His will does not depend upon us, but many teachers today seem to brag about how many people would be in hell were it not for them and their “ministry”.

And I agree, both a “gospel lite” and a “gospel plus” are not saving anyone. They are like the Pharisees that Jesus lambasted with things like, “You cross land and sea to win a single convert, then make them twice as much a child of hell as you are!”

If these people were preaching a true, accurate, unmolested gospel, we could with Paul rejoice that the truth is getting out.

It’s getting tougher each day to tell that this is Christianity they’re practicing.

Not to mention the fact that the ranter commenter clearly never read a thing you wrote or studied a single proof you gave. And it will never be a Christian virtue to brag about the flesh or seek preeminence over others. How can Christians even want such a thing?

“Stopping half the Bride” is a huge point the comps continually ignore. While Jesus said “the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few”, these men would cut the workforce in half. They mutilate the Body out of pride in their flesh.

This approach may work for many, but there are always some who only recognize strength and take even the slightest sign of politeness as weakness and concession. Being gentle to such people is like blood in the water to a piranha.

On the other extreme, there are people who take even the slightest disagreement, no matter how politely stated, as hate and aggression. They call discernment “divisive” and proving your argument from scripture “gymnastics”. Then they garner sympathy from others for your “harsh” treatment of them, in order to win by instilling false guilt for what is really their own thin skin.

The trick is in identifying what kind of person you’re dealing with. My point being, there isn’t a “one size fits all” approach to either evangelism or disagreement. Just as we argue against the notion that all men are this while all women are that, we should also guard against the notion that all who disagree with us on an issue are going to respond favorably to one approach.

Glad to help, TS. 🙂

And glad to see you posting again. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest The Comp-ound until it is deserted!

I think J MacA should go into the automotive business. He gets an astounding amount of mileage out of vapors!

A footnote on the passage by classical Greek scholar Ann Nyland states that the grammar here indicates it means “to give orders to someone, or to proclaim by authority. It was also a technical word for teaching any form of wisdom for pay… Women were attested as synagogue leaders (and thus teachers).” She translates vs. 10 as “which is fitting for women while they are giving a convert to Judaism instructions…”

So it’s quite possible (with much more than J MacA’s vapors for support) that these women were leaders, and as such were to live on a higher standard in every respect, just as the men were.

Katherine Bushnell lamented the lack of educated women allowed on Bible translation committees as one of the reasons for male bias. We must strike at the root to make real progress. That means getting the Bible lexicons up to date, especially on the meanings of idioms and other forms of expression. Then accurate translations need to be made, and then teachers need to throw away the old quarterlies and start serving “meat” instead of Twinkies to Sunday School students.

There is no reason why the average Christian cannot be expected to study in such depth. The status quo has a vested interest in keeping to the shallow waters, because only the uneducated are controllable. This is just as true for believers as for the world. They have sold us the lie that most people are too stupid to grasp what Paul was saying or consider the time and culture in which the NT was written. We feed them baby food and then have the audacity to wonder why they never grow.

Cheryl, as I read your impression with the greatness of God, I also thought of the fact that this God also numbers the hairs on our heads and cares whether a sparrow falls to the ground. Some would try to take away one aspect of God or another, either by denying His holiness or his love, but both are true of God. When all the dust settles from battles in the trenches over various issues, we can always refocus by remembering such seemingly trivial things as the hair on our heads and the sparrows. These simple things silence many proud theologies.

As for your health, I do agree that what we eat has a great effect. But there are also genetic and environmental factors we cannot control. There are many theories about how to optimize health, but in the end we know that we live in a corrupt world and that God will not allow us to suffer beyond His provision for strength. In spite of those “friends of Job” who may try to capitalize on such things, God will repay everyone eventually and bring justice to all. It is always sad to hear of our brothers and sisters in Christ having to suffer, but it reminds us all to count our blessings and sympathize with those who suffer.

And while some may call it escapist, I can think of no better motivation nor higher hope than Jesus’ promised return. It is very, very near! I can practically hear that trumpet blast even as the world braces for global economic collapse and the downfall of civilization as we know it. It is a source of strength the world cannot fathom, a source of hope it cannot quench. Our redemption is at hand and the end of all suffering is upon us.

ThyPeace, thank you for your kind words. “A cheerful heart is good medicine” (Prov. 17:22), and “Anxiety weighs down the heart, but a kind word cheers it up.” (Prov. 12:25)

Cheryl, the plugin is called MCEcomments.

Tiro, check Preferences–>Security, Web Content. The “Enable JavaScript” box should be checked.

Tiro, do you have javascript disabled in your browser?

Cheryl, there’s a good WP plugin for the wysiwyg comment editor, let me know if you’d like to try it. I had code before that stopped working with the current upgrade and replaced it. But it’s working for me (Firefox).

Cheryl, this problem you mention reminds me of Acts 18:17, where a mob who couldn’t get an official to arrest Paul turned on another person and beat them in front of him, but he didn’t let it sway him.

Today’s Christian community seems obsessed with control and chains of command. That is why they think blog owners should “own” their readers, and be held responsible for every site or article they link to. They see no difference between a homeowner’s right to control the atmosphere of their own home and their being responsible for the entire lives of the your visitors in their own homes as well.

But it does amount to an important admission: they know you are influential, and that your influence is freeing slaves. This they cannot endure, because they themselves are enslaved to mere humans and loyal to them above even Christ, and to their teachings above scripture. By showing strong opposition to them and not allowing their rage to run amok in your blog, you serve them notice that even the nicest Christians can and must show backbone in the face of evil.

U go girl!

(PS: I “just happened” to have been prompted to take a fresh look at my salvation article, and would be honored to hear your assessment when you have a moment. It’s now in two parts: one for the basic gospel, and another to elaborate on it as relating to various theories including predestination.)

Somewhere I read a long time ago about a theory that the people of the east had been visited by Jews who taught them long before about God and the scriptures. Can’t recall the details right now, but an interesting theory.

Hi Cindy,

It is tough, and we are only responsible for ourselves. I think sometimes we accept too much guilt from others and wear ourselves out trying to please them. Many believers today take any disagreement as offense and it’s just impossible to avoid offending them. But we can only do our best and examine ourselves in the light of scripture.

I’m slowly learning to make myself blind to how others offend me and leave the judgment to God, while focusing on scripture as the standard to measure myself by. It’s a tightrope but God will bless those who at least try. 🙂

Good stuff, as usual. 🙂

And it highlights something sadly lacking in Christian education: it must begin with familiarity of the text. I have my sons first of all just reading the Bible before getting very deep into its teachings. People need to know what’s in it before they learn to interpret it. Then the prophecies will come to mind when they read the NT.

Hi Cindy,

I think we’re probably saying the same thing in different ways. I labeled it “general comments” to try and communicate that what I was writing wasn’t necessarily specific to the example you gave, but it just brought out a point I wanted to elaborate on. Sometimes I’m a little too concise.

We all know here how the debate went between Cheryl and an infamous person 😉 , and that many people were rightly impressed with Cheryl’s calmness. But we also know that his supporters saw things completely the opposite that everyone else did, not only the arguments but the attitudes. But attitudes are much easier to hear than they are to see in writing, which is why I was trying to say here that we have to cut people a little more slack when it comes to tone and style.

At any rate, we can only begin a debate on any given topic when we boil the words down to actual arguments and clear away the chaff of perceived emotions. I will try in the future to first of all analyze an opponent’s post and identify only the actual points, then respond with my analysis to make sure it’s what the other person meant. Then I can respond to the arguments. It slows things down, but it also would prevent a lot of misunderstandings and ignored points, I think.

Yes, good stuff Cindy!

— general comments —

I will say, though, that while we can rightly be concerned when a believer shows, um, “negative emotional expression”, we still have to try to look past that when in debate. We are only human, and we are not told to discard our emotions but only to try our best to control them.

I’ve heard of other big names in eschatology who reportedly are less than civil to those who oppose them, but I think we have to be careful about connecting their theology to their spiritual health. I’ve done that too, but I need to practice separating the two. It isn’t easy. We should note the spiritual condition but not let it sway us in dealing with issues. Unless God appointed me to correct the person over their behavior, I should learn to ignore it. I’m as guilty as anyone about getting animated, but I do try to control it. Sometimes people presume I haven’t tried at all, compared to them, but God knows my heart.

So it could be, regardless of appearances, that our present antagonist is actually trying to be civil; I don’t know. At any rate, I was wrong to complain about the style, especially since I just ranted in my blog about how others have judged me on that basis. (But I do believe it’s the blog owner’s right to set the tone; it’s their “home” and they “have the final say” 😉 about the atmosphere.)

So “exclaim” away, John. But do listen to Cheryl, and please try to focus on theology and not the people.

This says it all: “someone demanding equality”. The problem, truth to tell, is when someone demands superiority. The “fallen fleshly superiority that you are demanding here” is prideful and domineering.

Tell us, John, what “not so among you” means, or “the greatest must be the least”.

And I could throw all your accusations back at you:

when you rely on feelings to drive your theology…
Just because you have benefited from centuries of male supremacist tradition that discriminates against women under all circumstances does not mean you can shoe horn your interpretation into every spot you can
It is a stretch of that passage that goes far beyond logical reason for a specific agenda. A demanding agenda! (yes, demanding of male preeminence)
But what I do not like is people mishandling Gods word to try and manipulate it to fit their skewed ideology– like asserting male supremacy, even though God does not look on the flesh but on the spirit.
All kinds of groups (such as male supremacists) have latched onto twisted theology in order to manufacture their very own interpretation of God’s word to fit their own fallen agenda!
In God’s economy you do not demand!

Those are all issues you must deal with in your own life.

And no one here is trying to “attempt to use rabbinical tradition to interpret the New Testament”! You have no clue what we’re saying, that much is obvious. You wish to ignore the context is all we’re saying, a context that includes the traditions Paul fought against. We’re saying that he strongly objected to the rabbinical traditions as were being forced on the believers in Corinth. That is the exact opposite of what you accuse us of.

When you use terms like “If anyone believes that, they are spiritually blind”, and when you claim that only YOUR interpretation is right and clear, and you presume to know our motives and judge our hearts, and when you ignore your OWN agenda of male privilege over your brothers and sisters in Christ, you display a pathetic ignorance of what Christian relationships are supposed to be like.

“The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few”, yet many try to hobble half the Body when the need is greatest. We don’t need fewer people spreading the gospel, and we don’t need taskmasters trying to enslave us to man’s rules. Instead of continuing this war against your spiritual equals and co-heirs, why don’t you turn your attention to the lost? Why not focus your energy on contending for the faith instead of beating your fellow servants?

John,

You bring yet more accusations, assertions, personal insults… one thing we can finally agree on is that this is pointless. You didn’t come here to learn or even argue, but only to bash and deny.

In spite of the efforts of male supremacists the world over, rest assured that we do indeed value the scriptures over the personal rage of those who cling jealously to society’s privileges. We have been made free by Jesus Himself, and gifted by His Spirit, never again to be enslaved or restricted by the power-hungry. We know the Truth and it has indeed set us free. We have only one Master and Judge to whom we will give an account.

Those who believe we are so wrong never show any compassion or concern for us. They shoot those they perceive to be wounded, and trample those they fear. When they see our boldness and strength, they sometimes border on the hysterical in their obsession with stamping us out. I will never fathom how anyone who comprehends the love of Christ for all of us could harbor such disdain for fellow believers.

John, I guess you’re going to use the exclamation points regardless. Whatever.

What shoe, John? The one you’ve been wearing? The one where only YOUR interpretation is right? The one where only YOU can decide which passages are open to interpretation and which are not?

You have answered nothing, John. Simply declaring someone wrong is not an answer, much less a logical argument or analysis. You should stop and read for a very long time before posting again, because you are unfamiliar with all the research and proper exegesis that’s gone into the views here.

John,

The “correct exegesis” is a matter of opinion. So you have judged Cheryl as having faulty exegesis when you have not proven it to be faulty, but merely made the accusation– hence judgment. We can as easily accuse you of “misusing a Bible passage for their own personal non-Biblical agenda!” I personally believe that you are “You are reading into the passage your own agenda!”

All you do is make baseless assertions and throw your opinion around. When will you answer the questions put to you? You are in Cheryl’s “house”, so you should be polite and answer her.

And PLEASE, lay off all the exclamation points. It comes across as shouting.

And I say, he’s not here to listen or learn but only to lecture and judge. Good luck, Cheryl. I’ve got better things to do too. 😉

John,

You completely misunderstand what we’re saying. Paul did quote the Corinthians at times (1 Cor. 1:11 for example… he got the information from others: “some from Chloe’s household have informed me“, it did not come from the Lord). Paul’s inspiration is NOT in question here, but you have to admit that he did quote people in order to answer their questions. And what do you do when Paul writes, “I, not the Lord”?

Paul did not write letters in a vacuum. He was given questions by the people and he wrote back to answer them. Or do you actually think Paul knew only by direct revelation from God that the Corinthians were condoning the man who had his step-mother?? No, he was informed of that by people.

The so-called “plain reading” method is nothing less than lazy and naive. The Bible commands us to STUDY, which is not needed if we can just lift words off the page and think we grasp the intent of the writings. That kind of foolhardy approach has been the seed of many cults and heresies.

It is you, John, who are guilty of mishandling the Word. And you are also guilty of improper judging. Does love do this? Does love seek to destroy, slander, or boss? No, it does not.

Egals demand nothing but faithfulness to the scriptures in context. They do not aspire to contrived “offices” but instead for equality. What part of “equality” is supposed to mean “superiority”? And what part of desiring superiority is supposed to be a Christian quality?

Male supremacists, on the other hand, DEMAND preeminence over half the Body. The fact that they scream so loudly when their culture-granted supremacy is challenged indicates lack of humility and desiring to “lord over”. They refuse to humble themselves as Jesus did; they refuse to give up privileges gained through a long history of bowing to patriarchal culture.

The fact that Paul was so clearly against putting Christians under Jewish law should make it abundantly clear that he would never appeal to it in the same breath. Therefore, Paul is not appealing to any such law but strongly refuting it.

Anyway, people who use excessive numbers of exclamation points are clearly just shouting and not listening at all.

Once again, I must ask why any believer would demand to keep a place of superiority over other believers, a place granted not by scripture but by society. Jesus had all authority as God but laid it aside to serve and save the world. He humbled Himself– a lesson yet unlearned by many professing the name of Christ, on many issues. This same Jesus said “not so among you” to all His followers, yet today many still clamor to see “who is the greatest”.

Egalitarianism is about equality, not superiority or rights or chains of command. Equality is the ideal Christian relationship, not a sin or a vice. Those who seem to loathe equality need to ask themselves why. Why does any mere human try to play God to another? Why would any believer even desire such a thing? Why do male supremacists cling so jealously to position and express so much fear of losing it– yet, ironically, try to accuse those who object to it as being the ones seeking position?

Hierarchy is the way of the world, the way of other religions. But “love does not demand its own way”, and “without love, I am nothing”. We are all spiritual siblings, with only Jesus as the “firstborn”. The rest of us are all on the same level. So for any to claim otherwise, to seek preeminence, to view social standing as “something to be grasped”, shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what Christianity is all about.

It is time for Christians to “remember the height from which you have fallen”, to “return to your first love”. The one who loves is finished with pride and prejudice, and filled instead with service and sacrifice. We must follow the example of Jesus in this.

Arlene, this just jumped out at me:

My attempts to be Christ like are at best inferior because I am a woman. I can’t become a man and so become manly.

The male supremacists don’t seem to have noticed that they are actually teaching Gnostic heresy in this. From the Gospel of Thomas, Logion 114:

Simon Peter said to him: “Mary should leave us, for women are not worthy of the Life.” Yeshua answered: “This is how I will guide her so that she becomes Man. She, too, will become a living breath like you Men. Any women who makes herself a Man will enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Of course some Gnostics insist this is allegory, but even then, it’s hard to miss the fact that they believed the “feminine” to be inferior and perhaps even sub-human. (They argue that it is not aner but anthropos that the woman must become, but that’s even worse, because that makes her not even a person.)