Ron

Another observation then surfaces; that Adam’s initial and root sin was not “eating from the tree”, as is popularly thought?

I wonder if there is any other lesson for us today? While, “we cannot set ourselves up as judge and jury of others”, as Cheryl rightly observes, do those within the “commissioned” leadership of the Church today also stand in a place of accountability to cry out about the merchandising and abuse of the Gospel, as some are doing? Paul certainly did that in his letters to Timothy and Titus, even naming names. It seems that those with influence who are not deceived are too often silent because that very position of influence could be threatened.

Cheryl has enough on her plate not to “go there”, but perhaps for some, not accusing Adam on this issue might justify more than their position regarding gender.

After enjoying some insights from Sue’s link, it occurred to me that once we work through the Eph 5 verses, we might revisit our thinking regarding Christ’s relationship with the Church. This is a kind of “hermeneutic circle” that might reflect back upon “how we ‘do’ church.”

Welcome back Cheryl.  As I continue to read the comments here it seems a bigger picture is emerging. Not to lose the needed focus, but backing off the lens for a moment, it appears that a major paradigm shift is happening which affects almost all the ways we are beginning to understand the Kingdom. Many of my roots were rotting because of having been planted too deeply in a culturally corrupt institutional soil. I have come to an entirely different place, actually one much closer in essence to my early years with the Lord. A problem is that paradigm shifts cannot be forced and seem to occur only with, as Cheryl indicated, asking the right questions with the humility to accept fresh answers. God help us all.

Don pointed out that as we move ahead we need to return to some of our Hebrew roots in some of our thinking. I have been considering lately just exactly why Israel was cut off. I know the theological explanations, but I mean more like—well, what might it “have looked like” that would have carried Israel on into God’s purposes. Was it not really a spiritual-heart-relational matter, not doctrinal but perhaps not unlike what we see happening in major arenas of the Church today? Surely it was a matter of how God felt about their relationship to Him, and the warning to us “wild olive branches” in Romans.

Truthseeker. Thanks for the welcome.
When I came to the Lord I was a research physicist with a very scientific world view. This was back when Bill Gothard was starting out—I knew him personally. I was comfortable with fundamentalist formulas, but another less known aspect of Bill’s ministry was an emphasis on mild manifestations of God’s supernatural presence. So through a series of changes of world view, seminary, trying to build a “New Testament Church”, and missionary challenges, I found experiences (closely related to fruit, don’t you think?) opened up Scriptures in new ways. African’s were colonialized by the West, but their oppression of their own women was worse. Mainly, when I began to develope a deeper relationship with Jesus and not merely doctrine, my heart started to change. The more I discovered the love the Lord was giving me, the more I discovered the love my wife was giving me. She “submitted” me into repentance. In our family I came to see that she was the real “minister”. This was a paradigm shift much bigger than just “the woman thing”!

Hi All,

Perhaps some of the things that complicate our understanding in these matters involve the Kingdom transition we are presently in (i.e. Heb 2:8). This duality is coupled with Paul’s awareness of the continuing battle with the “old nature” in Romans 7, and that we have one authority of our own person (to be placed under, not over another -Phil 1&2) and another authority, that of the Spirit of Christ living within us, which is manifested with divine unction by women and men alike. I was a missionary in Africa for 20 years and have seen women cast demons out of male sangomas (witchdoctors). Those demons didn’t seem to have a very effective argument.

Interesting theory, but I have a question. Eve sinned as well. She was also given the law. The serpent deceived her and then gave some to her husband. Why in your opinion would Eve and her children not also have a sin nature? Eve was exiled from the garden with Adam and she was punished with Adam. I look forward to your answer as I am writing an article on Jesus’ blood.