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YIKES!!!!!! I’ve heard of ‘OUT ON A LIMB’, but James White is OUT OF HIS TREE!!! IF God ordained the fall, then it’s GOD’S doing, not Adam and Eve’s. He puppeteered them to the forbidden fruit like some cosmic Jim Henson, had them do what He told them, a chapter earlier, NOT to do, and then pins the blame on A&E. How is THAT fair? In legal terms, that could be called a set up. God ordained sin and then framed Adam and Eve for the fall. If Calvinism is true, this would remove God from being called Just or Holy. He is the originator of the Fall. How does this work?! Biblically, however, Adam and Eve were told what NOT to do, and the consequences if they disobeyed. It’s called CHOICE. Free Will. (Pardon my french). Could God have prevented the FALL? Sure. He didn’t have to create that tree. That would have kept A&E perfect, but the lack of sin would be down to the lack of choice. Then again, Lucifer sinned in HEAVEN by trying to exalt himself above God. So maybe they would have thought of something, but it would be down to A&E’s choice, NOT GOD’S doing. Unless God was responsible for Lucifer’s downfall, too. Whatever god Calvinists worship, I don’t want to know him.

Okay, let me see if I have this straight…. James White believes that since God ordained all things (INCLUDING the FALL) evil has to have some sort of purpose. A reason or greater good? OY! I’ve heard of going “Out on a Limb” but Mr. White is clearly OUT OF HIS TREE! If God ordained the Fall, then GOD, NOT ADAM AND EVE, is to blame for the mess humanity is in. How can A&E be blamed for a choice they had no part in making, since, for the sake of discussion, humanity does not have a will, and we are being puppeteered from one situation to another by some cosmic Jim Henson. Actually, I shouldn’t say that. Jim Henson wouldn’t have dreamed of doing the things the god of Calvinism would have humanity do. A) because we have no will to decide. and B) because in order to know what was going to happen, God had to make it happen. This makes ZERO sense. Mr. White is trying to stuff God into his theology, which does unspeakable damage to the cause of Christ. Not only did ‘God’ (again, for the sake of making the point) frame humanity for something HE had our parents do (eat the forbidden fruit) but He did it in order to know what would happen because He is NOT truly omniscient. This is the god of Calvinism NOT the GOD of the Bible. If Mr. White, or any other five point Calvinist can prove, conclusively, that the god of Calvinism IS the God of the Bible, they will have much more success at ‘winning’ souls to the devil, than to heaven.

Hi Robin; The problem with looking at Salvation from a CALVINIST perspective at all is just as dangerous as looking at the deity of Christ with a Watchtower perspective. Your spiritual sight is warbled. Jesus invited the rich young ruler to follow Him, but the man just walked away; choosing worldly goods over God’s salvation. You’ll notice Jesus didn’t grab this guy by the shirt collar and say, “You’re one of the ELECT and you’re going to be saved whether you want to or not!” This man had a choice. But choices have consequences. I’ve asked before but I think it bears repeating; If you put exclusions to God’s invite to salvation, then how do you know if you’re saved or excluded? Or what if God chose to EXCLUDE you? 2 Cor 11:3 says, “But I’m afraid for you, children, for just as Eve was deceived by the craftiness of the enemy, so your minds might be lead away from the simplicity that is in Christ. ….” Simplicity has been translated as purity and devotion, but I like the word that suggests that the Gospel of Christ can be understood, in plainest language, by a pre-schooler. Q: Do you believe in the verse WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME….? Or John 3:16,17 WILL is the key word. “If anyone wills to do His will…” Again, there’s a choice to be made and GOD offers the choice. Likewise, when Jesus said WORLD, He meant every citizen of the world. Then, now and in the future. Of course, believers have to share that love and GOOD NEWS but in doing so, we don’t discriminate. ALL are just as entitled to receive this good news as we were. And NO ONE knew this better than the Apostle Paul (formerly Saul of Tarsus) . He called himself the chiefest of sinners and will forever be grateful that God saved him, on the road to Damascus rather than just zap him on the spot, which He could have done; given all Saul had done to His people up that point. God gave Saul the choice; Saul could harden his heart to any entreaty and warning of soon judgement, or stop the killing and follow Him. Under the circumstances, it was a pretty easy choice. But I think Paul would look back on that day, for the rest of his life, amazed that he was even given the choice.

Thanks, Cheryl! You didn’t have to but so glad you did. Otherwise, I’d end up making a hundred posts. Dear woman, you are SO brave to tackle the whole religion of Calvinism. It’s TRAGIC that people even want to believe the idea that Christ came to save only a segment of humanity. I think I’ve mentioned, before, I’ve gotten into arguements with five point Calvinists on the issue of what they would term LIMITED ATONEMENT. I think I even YELLED in ALL CAPS, at Tom McGovern when he said that 2 Peter 3:9 only applied to the ‘ELECT’. I said, “SO, IT DOESN’T MATTER TO YOU THAT YOUR BEST FRIEND OR PARENTS OR BROTHER OR SISTER, OR ALL OF THEM MIGHT NOT BE GOING TO HEAVEN BECAUSE GOD DECIDED THEY WOULD NOT BE AMONG THE ‘ELECT’ ?!?!?!?!” I mean I had a Cow and a calf! So, I need to ask Robin about 1 Tim 2:4-6, John 4:42, Romans 2:11, 1 Tim 5:21, 1 John 4:14 . If Jesus only intended to save so many, doesn’t it bother you? No one has free will. God decides who He’s going to save and the rest of humanity can go to hell. Literally. Does that sound like a God you want to believe in? I may have asked this before, and I apologize if I’m repeating myself, but it all comes down to the NATURE of GOD. Calvinists are fond of saying ‘God is SOVEREIGN’. So? Hitler was ‘SOVEREIGN’ in Germany. He had the power to murder millions of people just because he didn’t like them. He had the power to close businesses of Jewish business owners and arrest people for no reason. That’s Power. That’s authority. And we see that the nature of the man governs his actions. 1 John 4:7,8 says God is LOVE. Well, pardon me if you’re NOT a Dave Hunt ‘fan’, Robin, but “What LOVE IS THIS?” What kind of LOVE condemns the larger segment of humanity to eternal damnation without giving them a choice to decide whether or not to accept the offer of salvation?

Good point, Brad. God can hardly judge those he pre-determined NOT to save. That would have been HIS choice. To judge those who don’t have a choice to accept or refuse the offer of salvation is WRONG.

Robin: good question to consider…. if Jesus only meant SOME, how do you know if you’re INCLUDED or EXCLUDED from the SOME?

I do wish this site had a edit button. Anywho, as far as the DRAWING, Jesus does want ALL to come to repentence (2 Peter 3:9) but not everyone who is offered Christ’s salvation will respond favorably. Ideally, when movies come out, the movie’s producers, not to mention the theater owners would love every member of a city’s population to see said movie. Ka-CHING! But not everyone will want to see said movie, even if everyone had the money to go to the movies. Of course salvation is eternally better than a movie, but Jesus will not drag anyone, kicking and screaming, into heaven. The rich young ruler had a choice; Jesus or riches? The invite is on the table for all (John 4:42, 1Tim 2:4-6, 2 Cor 5:12-15, 1 John 4:14) Romans 2:11 and 1Tim 5:21 talks about the sin of partiality. How could God tell angels and humanity NOT to play favors if He, himself is that very thing?

Thanks, as always! I hadn’t looked at it that way. Sadly, a lot of people looking for God end up trapped in groups like JW’s, where the REAL Jesus is kept hidden from them. Calvinism, on the other hand, gives the CLOSEST COUNTERFEIT. It gives the Jesus who is God, manifest in the flesh, virgin born, and who rose, physically from the dead. Unfortunately this Jesus only died to save so many and no more. This unholy doctrine has slithered its way into the church because, foundationally, we agree. Jesus is GOD. The matter of WHO He came to save is the crux. ALL or few. The JW Jesus can’t save. The Calvinist Christ won’t. Or at least, not everyone the Bible says He wants to save.

Hi Robin: First off, apologies for making that assumption. As soon as I read “NON CALVINIST” I jumped to that conclusion. And when it comes to the issue of Calvinism, I’m not the most patient person around. So I DO apologize. To answer your question(as best I can) the Bible says Faith comes by HEARING and Hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17) But some, either by lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and the pride of life turn their back on the preaching of the Cross. Some might have been so deceived in the past that any mention of the Bible turns them off. Others, by religious background and tradition see the cross as a stumbling block. As far as overcoming that stumbling block…. God knows the heart. The Bible says that you will seek me and find Me when you search for me with all your heart. (Jer 29:13) But that searching is a personal CHOICE. And if someone GENUINELY WANTS to know, God will put someone in their path to point the person to Christ. John 14:6 is a huge issue here, but too many don’t know, even in the midst of their search, so they end up falling for the deception of the Watchtower Jesus, who can’t save. A few people have come to faith (from agnosticism or atheism) by trying to DISPROVE the Bible and Christ. There’s one author, I cannot remember his name, and he came to Christ after researching (out of sheer intellectual curiosity) to prove Him a myth or just a man. He’s a current author…. LEE STROBEL! (I just checked it) . 😀 But INTELLECTUAL SUPERIORITY is another reason some dismiss Christ and the Bible. The HUMAN MIND can’t make sense of this. But even Shakespeare said “There are more things in heaven and on earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” And Romans 1 is a great chapter. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.” Those who are continually stumbled by this are either content to rest in their intellectual superiority, or they’re afraid of what would happen if they did accept Christ. I’m not a seminary scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know that spent years, going to church with a classmate’s mom just because I liked what I was hearing. 1 Tim 2:4-6 says that it is His desire that ALL be saved, but the enemy of humanity has a firm grip on too many hearts and minds. (2 Cor 4:4) At the end of the day, the devil is the CHIEF source of every reason people don’t come to Christ. He devices road blocks. God will NEVER prevent ANYONE from coming to Him. Hebrews 11:6 . I hope that helps a bit. Once more, apologies for my jumping to hasty conclusion. Hope we can chat more.

Hi Robin: Simple question; Who is this god of Calvinism that he does NOT CHOOSE to love His entire creation? Romans 2:11, Eph 6:9, Acts 10:34, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 1 Tim 5:21, and, most importantly, John 3:16, 17, 1 John 4:14 says that God so loved the WORLD. That He did not come into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD but that the WORLD through HIM, might be saved. I am a CHRISTIAN. NEITHER Arminian and definitely NOT Calvinist. In CHRIST ALONE my hope is found. WHY do Calvinists have such a hard time with the idea with the idea that Christ loves His creation? Honestly, I want to understand, but I can’t. Because if Christ doesn’t love His entire creation, how do you know that he loves you? Just askin’ ?

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS: John Calvin did NOT die for you. Christ did.

That text was always a source of confusion to me. Thanks for the help. 🙂 I’ve heard it said that if there is any confusion about a specific text, you follow the easier verses along that same line. I’m no Bible Scholar, but if there was a clear cut verse for Calvinists to go to, saying that we had to be ‘sovereignly regenerated’ before we could believe, they’d have found it. At best, they create a recipe for such doctrines by sprinking and dashing bits and pieces of verses to arrive at some sort of theological stew. However, as Lorie McGregor liked to say, you can make the Bible say ANYTHING if you know how to cobble phrases together. “Judas went out and hanged himself. Go, thou, and do likewise.”

“IF there is any confusion about a specific text” . I forgot the IF.” These sites SOOO need an EDIT button. 🙁

Yup. THANKS! 😀

If needed, may I use your name to credit you with the info I’ve been looking into. I do appreciate the help. 😀

No need to reply. The dvd project comes first! 🙂 😀 True. Calvinists NEED to be treated as we would talk to a Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon or Marian Catholic. Something I need to remember. Oddly, I can talk to the first three groups with ease, calm and even humor. I think the fact that this deception has …slithered its way into my church brings out my less-than-patient side. But I will do my best to show the patience I would want shown to me, if I were in their place. Even as I write, I’ve finished a revision on the opening of my own project; ASKING Calvinists rather than trying to preach to them. A policy that should be adopted for dealing with Calvinists, even as it is with JW’s and others, caught in deception.

Dear Cheryl, you just took the words out of my mouth. THANK YOU!!! Problem is, while I was fairly sure that PRIDE had something to do with it, part of me didn’t want to believe it. It’s such a COLD, CRUEL sort of PRIDE. In Screwtape Letters, it’s called SPIRITUAL PRIDE. But don’t Calvinists realize that OTHERS need God’s mercy and love as much as they do? Or don’t they care? It’s sooooo Pharisiacal! Akin to the religious leaders of Jesus’ day thinking that they didn’t need to REPENT because they were Abraham’s lineage so they were IN. I guess they don’t care. I wouldn’t mind asking how these people would feel if they were on the other side of the LIMITED ATONEMENT they profess with such heartless indifference. GGGgggggrrrrrrrr :>

Oh, and THANK YOU for the answer to that called/ Chosen question. I guess that chimes in with “The Son of man came not to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for Many.” The Calvinist will jump on that with both feet. But not if they see that it lines up with John 1. “….He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to as MANY as received Him, to them He gave the right to be called the children of God….” HAPPY WEEKEND!!! 😀

SO do I!! What I don’t understand is HOW they can embrace such a HEARTLESS lie. I know Caris (sp?) is Calvinistic. The idea that God loves so many and no more??? I guess it’s part of the ‘temple of their familiar’ , to use a book title. Anywho, how much will your dvd be? As soon as I’m back on my financial feet (back to work) I’d love to get a copy!

Rats… should have asked in the last post…. That verse about “Many are Called but few are Chosen” is used to uphold Limited Atonement, but I’m sure that view is false. I’m just not altogether sure what the verse means. Help. THANKS! 🙂

Hi Cheryl 😮 Not to be off-topic…well, not TOO much, but I was watching some vids from WNFJ and found this one video by Eric…G…it’s a German name. Anyway, I practically had to pick my jaw off the floor. This guy was spouting 5 point Calvinism at a conference AGAINST false doctrine. Talk about going from the frying pan into the (Eternal) fire! https://youtu.be/j5j16RcRtIc I mean, at least, in the Watchtower, people can leave. It isn’t easy, by any stretch of the imagination, but they can leave. On the other hand, try getting out of HELL if the god of Calvinism consigns a person there, without their even having a choice (as per LIMITED Atonement) . So, you have a room full of people, some of them ex-jw’s still trying to shake the cobwebs loose from the whole bit of ONLY 144,000 going to heaven, and that’s it. They go to what they THOUGHT was a safe place, to hear about the Love of Christ, and they hear this guy talking about the five points of Calvinism and God deciding who He would choose for heaven. And these poor souls are thinking, “It’s De Ja Vu all over again!”

Hi Cheryl; Unless I miss my guess, Jesus spoke to the SPIRITUALLY dead every day. The common people, who drank in Christ’s parables, like water, but had a harder time when He got down to meat and potatoes doctrine. (Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you). Dialogues with the religious leaders must’ve made Jesus wonder if it would make more sense for Him to try to preach to the Wailing Wall! 😉 Whereas, Lazarus, 4 days (physically) dead, was easier to reach than those with their education and pride in their education. So the next time a Calvinist insists that the spiritually dead are compatible with being physically dead, remind them that Jesus was able to reach a guy who hadn’t been breathing for three days. OUR PRIDE is the stumbling block. Not that God doesn’t want to reach us, but we have crammed our ears with our own views, accomplishments and desires. Physically dead people lack that problem. 🙂

Hi Cheryl; 😀 First things first…the name confusion. Gillian is my online name. My middle name. But most of the time, and with most people I’m Joanna. Sorry about that. And you’re quite right about approach and ATTITUDE which will determine how we respond to people caught in any deception. There, but for the Grace of God, go I. I just have to learn to operate brain and heart before engaging tongue. Not easy with some. With the word ‘Sovereignty’ as devout Calvinists use it, to me, it’s like that reflex hammer doctors used to use. As soon as he/she hits that nerve, the knee reacts. It doesn’t wonder if it should or shouldn’t, it just does. A suitable analogy, when kicking leg and a loosened tongue can do the same sort of damage. Thankfully, I now know what that word means and what questions I can possibly ask, to make the Calvinist think. First, there’s the matter of training, what Josephine March (Little Women) called, “My tongue. My abominable tongue!” Joanna GILLIAN.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again; You’ve got the patience of Job. 🙂 I will try. Thankfully, today’s post op follow up (Breast Health Care center) gives me nearly a clean bill of health. Three radiation treatments and all should be well and I’ll be back to work in August. THAT said, I will be spending my recuperation time finish up and polishing up my project and posting it to my blog. I plan to use that time wisely.

FINISHING up. OY, these sites need an Edit button. 😮

Hi Cheryl 🙂 Last things first.. I posed the issue to my pastor as a question, related to Judas and genuinely expressed confusion on the matter, which I kinda am. So he said he would deal with the the issue during the week. This weekend’s been a bit nuts, with the Annual General Meeting. So I’ll find out what goes from there. Pastor Jim is a good guy. Like you said, it’s more an issue of tradition. :/ Okay, confession time. I have to admit that, when it comes to Calvinists, I view them the same way I used to view JWs. I avoid them like poison Oak. I have to learn how to talk to them with the same love I would share for JWs. But with JW’s, their god is soooo off that it’s like we’re talking about two different people. With the Calvinist, it’s like someone defaming a friend of mine, and I just lash out! i.e. “Who are YOU to say that you are better than anyone else?! How is it LOVE to save only one of your children from a burning building when there are two kids in the house?!” I LOSE it. So it’s good that Tom McGovern is willing to at least hear you out. If you email him, feel free to share those verses of BIBLICAL Election. Esp. Re: Messiah. It dawns on me, though, that there are similarities between Calvinists and JW’s, in their double mindedness. Or, at the VERY least, confused. In the Watchtower, God will save ONLY JW’s. In Calvinism, Christ came to save ONLY the (Calvinist) ‘elect’. There is EXCLUSIVISM in both groups. I mean, any good parent would not play favors. If they buy one child school clothes, they buy both children school clothes. And both in the same store. They don’t go to Old Navy for one child and then a Salvation Army Thrift store for the other. Love of NO kind saves ONE child from drowning while letting the other kid go under. Giving the ‘non elect’ the best job, best house in the best neighborhood isn’t worth a hill of beans when the end result is eternal torment. AT GOD’S HAND. How is that even JUST, let alone LOVING. At the end of my new chapter on Unconditional Election, I wrote, Dear Calvinist; If God does NOT love the whole world, then how do you know He loves YOU? Thanks for listening, Joanna

TOTALLY AGREED! 🙂 Even as I work on that project, I have to remember that the Calvinist, like the JW is deceived by false doctrine, and try to deal with the issues with QUESTIONS rather than an IN YOU FACE screech-fest. I wouldn’t want that done to me, so I have to remember how to approach even my writing with a less cranky attitude. With two exceptions (turning over the tables of the money changers/ His rant against the Scribes, Pharisees as HYPOCRITES) . Tactful He was NOT. 😀 Most of the time, though, Jesus met people where they were. He knew the human heart. I’m guessing He may have even prayed to the Father for patience with the Pharisees, on one of the times the Bible says Jesus went off to a solitary place to pray. Long story short ( ’bout time, huh? 😉 ) I do have to watch my attitude that I don’t do the right things with the wrong attitude, which will do as much harm as giving them wrong doctrine. At the very least, it won’t do any good. SO, I need to pray and count to 100… backward if that will help. Because I don’t want to be ‘smoked’ 😀 so I won’t ‘smoke’ others. I’m so glad I’m not the only one who feels this way. I have read the same thing (Re: Doubts) in Dave’s book. Sproul and even Calvin talked about their ‘doubts’ about being one of the ‘elect’. Now, even ASSUMING that there is a modicum of truth to the Calvinist version of ‘Election’, I can’t help but wonder… when Barak Obama was referred to as ‘President Elect’, the Democratic party didn’t just grab him out of his home and say, “Buddy, you’re gonna run for president of the United States’. Didn’t he have to decide to run for the office? In the most basic way possible, the late Adrian Rogers said, “Who are the ‘elect’? Whosoever WILL.” (See John 7:17) As always, thanks for listening. ~Joanna~

+Darrell Brantingham AMEN and AMEN! I look forward to the day when I can THANK Dave Hunt personally. That book (What LOVE is THIS?) was my lifeline when Calvinism came close to pushing me away permanently. I HATED the god the Calvinists were showing me; On one hand, I KNEW this couldn’t be the same ‘person’ I heard about in my church. But the WHAT IF’s was driving me nuts! How could the God who loved me just wave off friends and family into hell without so much as a shrug. Who am I that I’m better than they were that I could be part of this ‘elect’ as Calvinism defined it?? Re: Physical during spiritual death. Jesus called Lazarus from the dead with three words; LAZARUS, COME FORTH! And He only had to do that once. But with the religious leaders, the Lord could talk and talk …and talk and not get through. Why? THEIR WILL. Their stubborn pride. Not that GOD was refusing them entry, but that they wouldn’t accept the invite.

Girl, you have got MORE PATIENCE than JOB, dealing with these people (Calvinists). Bravo! 🙂 Thank you for the research you are doing!

Hmmm… In my church, it is REQUESTED, but not an issue, (I don’t think) that those who don’t confess Christ as Savior don’t participate in The Lord’s table. Like those who might go to church during holidays (Christmas, Easter). Is this a problem?