The connection in John 6:64-65

That text was always a source of confusion to me. Thanks for the help. 🙂 I’ve heard it said that if there is any confusion about a specific text, you follow the easier verses along that same line. I’m no Bible Scholar, but if there was a clear cut verse for Calvinists to go to, saying that we had to be ‘sovereignly regenerated’ before we could believe, they’d have found it. At best, they create a recipe for such doctrines by sprinking and dashing bits and pieces of verses to arrive at some sort of theological stew. However, as Lorie McGregor liked to say, you can make the Bible say ANYTHING if you know how to cobble phrases together. “Judas went out and hanged himself. Go, thou, and do likewise.”

“IF there is any confusion about a specific text” . I forgot the IF.” These sites SOOO need an EDIT button. 🙁

If fixed the mistake. I guess I am the EDIT button, eh? 😉

Yup. THANKS! 😀

For the sake of argument, let’s assume you, Cheryl, are correct: the people don’t believe, and for this reason (because they don’t believe) Jesus tells them they can’t come (since the Father doesn’t give unbelievers). A question for the non-Calvinist: What does it mean that “the flesh profits nothing?” Since the words Jesus spoke “are spirit and life” and yet after hearing Jesus’s words they still don’t believe, what is the mechanism by which one does begin to believe?

Hi Robin: Simple question; Who is this god of Calvinism that he does NOT CHOOSE to love His entire creation? Romans 2:11, Eph 6:9, Acts 10:34, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 1 Tim 5:21, and, most importantly, John 3:16, 17, 1 John 4:14 says that God so loved the WORLD. That He did not come into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD but that the WORLD through HIM, might be saved. I am a CHRISTIAN. NEITHER Arminian and definitely NOT Calvinist. In CHRIST ALONE my hope is found. WHY do Calvinists have such a hard time with the idea with the idea that Christ loves His creation? Honestly, I want to understand, but I can’t. Because if Christ doesn’t love His entire creation, how do you know that he loves you? Just askin’ ?

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS: John Calvin did NOT die for you. Christ did.

gilliansnotebook, Could we assume that we have the same God but that we understand God differently?

Robin, The answer to the rest of your question about what verse 63 means, will be best answered in a new post rather than in the comment section since I am going verse by verse. I will try hard to get that done sometime in the next week if I can possibly put in the time for a post. Is that acceptable? I hope you will watch for it. Better yet why don’t you subscribe to new posts in the check box below?

Why do you assume I am Calvinist? I have read a lot of Calvinist literature; therefore, it is reasonable for me to frame a question from that point of view. I have legitimate questions that I am working through. So far, I have yet to come across a reasonable answer to my question as to what brings about belief. It’s obvious that one must “hear.” But when there are verses about God’s Word being powerful and effective, and not returning void, and accomplishing the thing for which it is sent, it makes me wonder if indeed there must be an “effectual” impetus in coming to believe. Satan successfully blinds men spiritually. Shouldn’t we assume that in order to combat Satan’s power that God has at least equal (if not more) power to illuminate the mind? And, if God has equal (if not more) power to illuminate a mind, shouldn’t we see more people coming to know the Lord than not? In other words, since the pull to love sin is so strong, doesn’t the drawing of God have to be great enough to overcome that pull to sin? To illustrate, God’s wooing me would be like presenting Christ to my mind so that Christ is attractive to me… like chocolate cake. Given spinach (sin) and chocolate cake (Christ), I would want to choose cake because it appeals more to me. So, my question stands… What causes someone to actually believe? If preaching causes some to stumble (Jews) and to others preaching is foolishness (Gentiles), how does one overcome the stumbling, or the seeing of the cross as foolishness?

Hi Robin: First off, apologies for making that assumption. As soon as I read “NON CALVINIST” I jumped to that conclusion. And when it comes to the issue of Calvinism, I’m not the most patient person around. So I DO apologize. To answer your question(as best I can) the Bible says Faith comes by HEARING and Hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17) But some, either by lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and the pride of life turn their back on the preaching of the Cross. Some might have been so deceived in the past that any mention of the Bible turns them off. Others, by religious background and tradition see the cross as a stumbling block. As far as overcoming that stumbling block…. God knows the heart. The Bible says that you will seek me and find Me when you search for me with all your heart. (Jer 29:13) But that searching is a personal CHOICE. And if someone GENUINELY WANTS to know, God will put someone in their path to point the person to Christ. John 14:6 is a huge issue here, but too many don’t know, even in the midst of their search, so they end up falling for the deception of the Watchtower Jesus, who can’t save. A few people have come to faith (from agnosticism or atheism) by trying to DISPROVE the Bible and Christ. There’s one author, I cannot remember his name, and he came to Christ after researching (out of sheer intellectual curiosity) to prove Him a myth or just a man. He’s a current author…. LEE STROBEL! (I just checked it) . 😀 But INTELLECTUAL SUPERIORITY is another reason some dismiss Christ and the Bible. The HUMAN MIND can’t make sense of this. But even Shakespeare said “There are more things in heaven and on earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” And Romans 1 is a great chapter. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.” Those who are continually stumbled by this are either content to rest in their intellectual superiority, or they’re afraid of what would happen if they did accept Christ. I’m not a seminary scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know that spent years, going to church with a classmate’s mom just because I liked what I was hearing. 1 Tim 2:4-6 says that it is His desire that ALL be saved, but the enemy of humanity has a firm grip on too many hearts and minds. (2 Cor 4:4) At the end of the day, the devil is the CHIEF source of every reason people don’t come to Christ. He devices road blocks. God will NEVER prevent ANYONE from coming to Him. Hebrews 11:6 . I hope that helps a bit. Once more, apologies for my jumping to hasty conclusion. Hope we can chat more.

Robin, You said: I have legitimate questions that I am working through. That is reasonable and fair. I am glad that you found this blog and that we can interact in a respectful dialog. You also said: So far, I have yet to come across a reasonable answer to my question as to what brings about belief. It’s obvious that one must “hear.” That is obvious to me too, however is it not normal for a Calvinist to say that the dead can do nothing? That they are stone, cold, dead, and they can’t hear?

Thank you for your kind responses, and please excuse my slow reply, as I was out of town and chose to take a vacation from my laptop. When I read John 6:65, it does seem evident that it corresponds back to verse 64, As I read it, it seems that the link, according to Jesus’ words is this: some of you don’t believe, and this is why some of you don’t believe – “it” must be given by My Father. To what does the “it” refer? I’m trying to research this. What is it that must be given by the Father? I heard an interesting illustration recently about a lion. A lion has all the natural faculties necessary to eat grass (the teeth, the mouth, the tongue, etc.) But by nature he is a carnivore. He may be starving to death, but will not eat the grass all around him. Similarly, an unregenerate person has no desire or affection for Christ. It’s not that the person lacks the ability to choose, it’s simply that he won’t choose to come to Christ. Therefore, since Christ is first viewed as repulsive (stumbling block) to the Jews, or as foolish (against common sense) to the Gentiles, there must be “something” (“it?” vs. 65) that brings about a changed mindset or attitude in regards to the cross. Verse 65 seems to say that whatever the “it” refers to must be granted by the Father. I’m wondering if this is what is meant by the “call” of I Cor. 1:24. This passage basically says there are Jews, there are Gentiles, and then this group of “called” – and to this group, Christ is viewed as the power and wisdom of God. How did that happen? This question haunts me.

Oh, and one more thing, I would be interested if you would be willing to share…are you a girl Robin, or a guy?

I am a 50 year old mother of five. haha

Robin, then you must have a LOT of wisdom, eh? That is quite a brood.