pinklight

You said “Adam was saying that God and the woman were at fault for the reason why he ate”

I agree with you here, but where is it in the text that saids this. What Adam said is true is it not? See the problem?

What problem? It’s not just what he said but ultimately why he said what he did – which was out of rebellion. Since he knew better, knew what he was doing when he went to eat, what was his reason then for bringing up God and the woman?

When you read Adam you read into it that he is blaming someone else,

Not true. The serpent did something to Eve, the serpent changed Eve’s mind by deceiving her. On the other hand God and the woman did no such thing to Adam. They didn’t do something to him. So why did Adam bring them up? They didn’t get him to eat, but the serpent got the woman to eat.
So I simply read the words of a man in rebellion. Do you claim that he was no longer rebellious when he answered God? Same thing with Eve. I simply read the words of a woman who was no longer deceived.

but when you read Eve you say the opposite. My point is though, neither of them said anything false. You are being inconsistent. What Adam said was true becasue God addresses him for ‘listening to his wife’. What Eve said was true becasue God addresses the serpent “because you have done this…”. So i find it odd that you assume something about Adam but not Eve. Deception does not exonorate her from being sinful.

No, the problem is that you are assuming about Eve. You are assuming that she was like Adam in her sin when the text tells us otherwise. She is being exonerated though btw, but just not from her sin. 🙂

The serpent was cursed for what it did – it deceived Eve. Therefore I think it’s pretty important that we get straight that there is a difference in the way Adam and Eve sinned, and a difference for why each said what they did. Eve had a reason for bringing up the serpent for what it did to her, but what was Adam’s reason for bringing up God and the woman when they did nothing to him?

Mark,

This comment is also posted above in #73. Please do not overlook it. I’m re-posting it now.

If you are going to claim that Eve blamed someone else for her SIN then you MUST also claim that even Paul also blames someone else for Eve’s sin. To say that she blamed the serpent for her SIN is not correct.

…blames someone else for her sin

Gen 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.

Gen 3:13
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

2 Co 11
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning,

Now Adam on the other hand DID blame others for his SIN and the reason why this is accurate is because he wasn’t deceived into sinning. He was rather a rebel.

Hello Mark,

Regarding ‘ha’adam’, we know in 3:9 it can only be referring to one man (not Eve) since the very next verse reveals this- only the man responds. However in immediately after the banishment, who is introduced, Adam and Eve- both of them. So the context helps determine who is intended, in 3:9 only the man, in 3:22ff both of them.

You just said here that in 3:9 ‘ha’adam’ refers to one man excluding Eve. So who’s being refered to in 3:19 when God is still talking to the one man? The same one man is being refered to, right? Is it the same one who was taken from the ground being refered to in 3:23?

3:17
To Adam he said…
3:19
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were TAKEN;

3:23
So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been TAKEN.

Adam specificaly says that woman was “taken” from man in Gen 2. (Same Hebrew words). The bible makes it very CLEAR who was “taken” from what or who.

Isn’t it interesting how tradition has taught us to look at Eve as if she was punished for being deceived yet it was Adam who was banished and thrown out of the garden for his rebellious nature?

The only thing that Adam was leader of was rebellion and he got a one way ticket out of the garden for it. ;P

There is not difference of nature here. And in the same way that God knows Adam told the truth, he knows Eve told the truth, since he curses the snake. But should we conclude therefore that Eve (or Adam) have seperate sin natures. No i don’t think so.

Eve blames the serpent for deceiving her and rightly so and in turn God curses the serpent. On the other hand Adam blames God and the woman for what he did without justification and God turns right around blames Adam himself and curses the ground for what Adam did. Notice no one that Adam blames is cursed while who Eve blames IS cursed. You still haven’t even been able to establish from the text itself that Eve had the “sin nature” that Adam had. She was a sinner, but not a rebel.

Paul tells us in 2 Cor 11 of his fear that the Cor will be led astray in the same was as Eve was by the serpent. He is not excusing Eve of guilt. Do you think he would excuse sin, when he is so grafic about the nature of sin in other parts of the bible (Rom 1,3; Eph 2)
And in 1 Tim 2 Paul explicitly talks about the woman who was deceived and became a transgressor. Here Paul is explicit in teaching Eve was a transgressor. She is a sinner.

This does not establish that Eve had the “sin nature” that Adam had. In 1 Tim 2 v14 Paul isn’t talking about Eve like he was in v13. Do you see the name “Eve” in v14? Notice that in v14 Paul drops using her proper name since he’s switching back to talking about the false teacher or “a woman” of v11. Eve is a sinner yes, but not a rebel with the sin nature of Adam.

No where in scripture is Eve considered to have a sperate sin nature to Adam. She disobeyed God’s command. Acted the same was as Adam, was punished for her sin.

Eve wasn’t born of Adam so she does not inherit a sin nature. Sin comes into the world through Adam not Eve. No where does scripture teach that she was a rebel like Adam. They both sinned so they both died, but only one was a rebel.

Mark, those last two comments of mine were for you.

Eve was at fault for being deceived and she admitted it. Adam though was at fault for rebellion and continuing in rebellion all he did was blame God and the deceived woman.

Gen 3:12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

Now this is true, is it not? The woman did give Adam the fruit, and God did give the woman to be with the man. So Adam has not lied here, but he has not admitted his own fault and tried to blame it on someone else.

Adam was saying that God and the woman were at fault for the reason why he ate. He wasn’t deceived. BUT God and the woman were not at fault! Adam was blaming God and a DECEIVED woman! LOL! Adam was not justified in blaming God and the woman. God doesn’t blame himself or the woman. Rather he blames Adam himself. God and the woman who were blamed were not guilty as charged by Adam but rather God was innocent and the woman was deceived. God never blames the woman as he blames the serpent and Adam by saying “Because you have”.

Adam did not confess the reason why he ate – rebellion. He was not deceived. Still in rebellion (unlike Eve who came out of her deception) he wrongly blames God and the woman. It’s true, Adam did not admit HIS OWN fault, that he rebelled, whereas Eve was DECEIVED so the same kind of admission is impossible.

Adam is also blamed by God in a very similar way:

Genesis 3:17 (NASB) Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

Notice again that God says “Because you have…” This is God’s blame and with the blame brings a curse. ”Cursed is the ground because of you”. The “you” here is singular masculine and the ground was cursed because of only one man’s sin.

regarding what Adam and Eve said to God about the fall is important. Both rather than admitting their fault, pass it on.

Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

God knows Adam told the truth by the question he asks of the woman. Now the woman also has not lied, it was the serpent who deceived her, but in EXACTLY the same was as Adam, she has not admitted her own fault.

Eve was saying that the serpent is at fault for the reason why she ate that is, for deceiving her, and the serpent IS at fault! Eve was right in blaming the serpent! Even God blames the serpent right along with the woman! God says to the serpent “Because you have done this”. The serpent is guilty as charged by Eve and God. The one that Eve and God blamed was even cursed by God. Eve blamed someone who was guilty.

God speaks of blame by saying “Because you have done this…” and the result of the blame to the serpent is a curse. It isn’t a guess that God cursed the serpent because the inspired text says “cursed are you…”

So Eve confessed the reason why she ate – she was deceived. Being out of her deception she was aware that the serpent had deceived her. She blamed the guilty. But what about Adam?

Mark,

an over literal position is one like yours which tries to fit everything into a systematic chronology.

A metaphorical approach is to say this didn’t actually happen.

A literal approach (my view) is to say it is historical fact, but not try and squeeze everything to fit systematically.

Scriptural proof for Eve’s leaving is the semantic range of ‘ha’adam’.
It can mean more than one person. Therefore Gen 3:22ff includes Eve, but the text is addressed to the man as the head.

Did God or not speak to the man and the woman, blessing them, telling them to multiply, eat and rule? Are those words in Gen 1, the very words of God spoken to the man and the woman, (which had to of been spoken after woman was created that is, “after chp 2”) or not? If God said those specific words to the man and the woman, when did he say them? It seems to me that you don’t believe that the words of God recorded in Gen 1 to the man and woman were actual words that he spoke. Is this true?

To claim the semantic range of a word is not scriptural proof. All that is, is claiming the semantic range of a word. What specificaly is in the text of Gen 3:22 that shows that the word is being used for the race? What grammar shows this? What part of the context shows this claim of yours? Is the grammar plural? Is there anything in the context itself that indicates Eve is in view?

Also what in the text indicates that the man is being addressed as the head? Is there a mention of rule? Is there a word on authority or responsibility? Is there anything said about the man being the head in this text? Where can I actualy read anything about the man as “head” in these verses?

Mark,

Do you take God’s very own words, literaly or not?

In regards to your comment #61, Gen 1 says that God SPOKE to them and we know this is after the woman was created because he spoke to a “them” (pl). Yeah, God’s words SHOULD be taken here literaly – him giving them food over the face of the earth (fruit with seed), and rulership over the earth and animals because these are God’s words being spoken. Would you like to make the argument that God did NOT actualy speak and say what the bible says he said? Can you explain to me how I’m taken the text to literally by accepting the words of God that come out of his mouth?

Mark,

I want textual proof that Eve was banished out of the garden. There can be no doubt – 100% – that Adam was banished out of the garden. The proof that he was banished out of the garden is 100%. There is no way it can be debated or argued. There’s is NO doubt that he was banished. Now what of Eve? We can claim that the bible teaches that Adam was banished from the garden but what can we claim biblicaly of Eve?

22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

What truth? She responds to her sin exactly the same as Adam (hides, makes covering, blames someone else for her sin). That is they have the same response. Is this not the same nature of sin. Do you believe that Eve sinned once, but was then sinless again or perfect again?

So, unless you are going to be consistent and claim that Paul blames someone else for Eve’s sin, then your atatement that “She responds to her sin exactly the same as Adam” is false. And as Cheryll already pointed out, “hiding and covering” is a matter of shame. Someone doesn’t hide and cover themselves from God out of rebellion! Adam sinned one way and the woman sinned another way. Therefore they do not have the same “sin nature”. Eve was a sinner, Adam was a sinner but Adam was not deceived.

Hi Mark,

If you are going to claim that Eve blamed someone else for her sin then you MUST also claim that even Paul also blames someone else for Eve’s sin. To say that she blamed the serpent is not correct.

blames someone else for her sin

Gen 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.

Gen 3:13
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

2 Co 11
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning,

Now Adam on the other hand DID blame someone else for his sin and the reason why this is accurate is because he wasn’t even deceived into sinning.

This actualy doesn’t apply since she didn’t need a male to become pregnant with Jesus. I wasn’t thinken. I should probably go to bed now anyway.

1) The prophecy about the enmity between her seed and the serpent’s seed. Since Adam was kicked out she would of had to go with him.

Textual reasons why she left the garden with Adam:
1) The prophecy about the enmity between her seed and Adam’s seed. Since Adam was kicked out she would of had to go with him.
2) God said he’d multiply her conception, and Adam was kicked out so again she had to go with him for this to take place.
3) Adam’s rule over her
4) Her desire for her husband
5) ?

Mark,

Gen 1 is not meant to be squeezed into the picture the way you and Cheryl try. It is a differant literary genre designed for a seperate purpose- an overview. Therefore your view leads to the logical conclusion that God gave some command not recorded, but which is vital in understanding Gen 3- just seems abit obscure to take that approach, when we have the prohibition recorded in Gen 2.

If you are correct than you are telling me that the accounts tell of two different times where God made two sets of a male and female. Is this what you believe? It is so simple, to me. It’s all one big story broken down into 2 accounts. So what? If it’s the same story then everyhting integrates together beautifully without contradiction.

Now some of your specific questions…
“Were they BOTH not able to eat from trees of the garden? You tell. Was this incorrect? Was she not given all trees on the earth?”

Yes they were both prohibited from eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The plural in Gen 3 of ‘you’ indicates that. Plus they both sinned by eating the fruit, therefore both were not allowed to eat it.

So then, yes, both could eat from the trees in the garden (this is what Eve told the serpent) in the very first part of her response to the serpent’s question, right, Mark?

NO she was not given every tree on the earth. They were both given trees and plants with ’seeds’ to eat. But i am sure that is what you meant anyway.

Yes, I meant – that they both were given every tree and plant with fruit that had seed, on the face of the entire earth, that is what I meant. (Therefore the tree of konwledge could not of had seed in it’s fruit.) Do you agree with that?
Thank you Mark for answering some questions! 🙂

Now about the chronology. I have not said that Gen 1 is not historic so don’t read me that way. What i am saying is that grammatically you are inserting the narrative of Gen 1 which is supposed to act like an overview, into the middle of 2 and 3.

Then answer these questions, When did God tell them to multiply? Did he tell them after the woman was created, which would be sometime after the account of Gen 2 where the woman was created, or before, or is there some other possibility? How long after Eve’s creation do you think God waited to give her something to eat? The sole purpose of Gen 1 is not to act as an overview, it is all to serve the details on a plate, plain and clear of what happened at creation. Now it may give less details and the same details but in different ways, but it still adds more details that are not given in Gen 2, – there’s no argument against that.

IF you continue to want to make a literal chronology of events, then please start showing how the animals are made before Adam in Gen 1 but after in Gen 2, or how the plants are made on day 3 but not there until the man is made in Gen 2.

Cheryl has explained this somewhere here on her blog. If I can find it for you I’ll post the links. When I become interested in such discussion we can go at it then if you’d like. 😛
You are treating the accounts as if they could possibly contradict one another. That’s my point – they absolutely CANNOT and do NOT and the reason being because they tell the same exact story but just from different angels and perspective with different details. I’ve never understood why this is a big deal to some, except it is tradition to say that there are contradictions amongst the accounts. This I do not believe. I don’t believe in a contradictory God who makes no sense.

LOL

No, this is not correct. What I said was that God’s words to the woman would be a good and possible reason for why she left. It makes sense to me, but since the Scripture doesn’t specifically say why she left, it is speculation. You speculation is that she was kicked out even though the text doesn’t say that. It is my speculation that she desired her husband and he took his rule over her to make sure that she was with him. Since these were God’s words, I would think that my speculation has at least some textual evidence while there is no evidence from the text that she was kicked out. It is merely your own speculation.

This is great. Love it. Love the detail! 🙂

Please don’t start taking Cheryl’s approach to discussions. You asked me in #37 talk about the ’stingy’ aspect and i did, so please don’t start giving the indication as if i am not answering the questions you pose. It’s not a helpful tactic to take.

LOL. It not a tactic, I was being completely serious. It seemed to me that if my questions were addressed directly then maybe we could go forward. Shall I go back and tally up all the questions you’ve not answered of mine? I will if you want me to and then you can see how serious I was.

Hi again Mark,

what made her see the fruit was good? The conversation led her there. Or had she never physically looked at the tree before in your view? You said her “perception was now in a state of deception”, but how did she get there if not through the conversation? It might help to look at what the biblical commentators say on this one?

What, you ask made her see the fruit was good? This which is what the serpent said after she got correct what her and Adam could eat, framing her question according to what the serpent was asking, and also after she told God’s command:

4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Those are the words that she ended up believing which is why she next saw the fruit as good. It doesn’t matter whether or not she even looked at the tree once, a hundred times, or never untell the serpent said that she and her husband would not surely die… And the reason why it doesn’t matter is because what does matter is that WHEN she saw it good for food, ONLY THEN did she eat.

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.

Her perception was now in a state of deception, and how she got where she did was through the serpent lying about her and her husband not dying if they ate and becoming like God. She certainly didn’t get to a state of deception by telling the serpent what they could eat and telling God’s command.

I also cannot find when God commanded Adam the exact words, “You (singular) must not eat of it.” If God said that, since it is a quote, then when did he say it? Also how many times was Adam told what he could and could not eat?

IF there is no indications in the conversation that equal deception, but as you insist she was 100% faithful in answering the serpent correctly, then what made her take the fruit?

Were they BOTH not able to eat from the trees of the garden?? I’m not asking you about what God said to Adam when he was alone before woman was created. I’m asking you is it is CORRECT that she and him both could eat from trees of the garden. The serpent did ask about the garden trees, did he NOT?

I already told you what made her take the fruit. She saw it was good. Her perception was now in a state of deception since she saw the fruit as good.

You may not see it this way, but i think you are wrong if you take that stance. If the conversation is not part of leading her astray then what is? What makes her turn? IF there is no indications in the conversation that equal deception, but as you insist she was 100% faithful in answering the serpent correctly, then what made her take the fruit?

She answered the serpent correctly. Were they BOTH not able to eat from trees of the garden? You tell. Was this incorrect? Was she not given all trees on the earth? Why don’t you answer some of my specific questions?

The idea of deception must be understood throughout the whole conversation.

No, not without scriptural proof. The idea of deception must NOT be understood throughout the whole conversation without the scripture’s word on it. Scripture itself ought to tell us when the idea of deception is to be understood – if it provides such information – which it does. We can’t just replace what the scripture has provided by adding to it and then distort the information it gives. The serpent asks a question about the garden trees. The woman answers the serpent’s specific question about the garden trees since she already had knowledge on more than just the garden trees. She already knew that she could eat from all trees even the one’s outside the garden. Then she gives God’s command.

What evidence Mark do you have that tells us that from the moment she spoke (answered the serpent’s question) that she started falling into deception?

to me the whole conversation between the serpent and the women is to be understood as deception, not just the part where she sees that the fruit was good.

Mark,

The reason why you see this is because you discount her testimony since the command given to Adam doesn’t contradict it therefore your conclusion is based on assumption alone. I just take her word for it since there’s nothing in the whole of the creation and fall account that proves her testimony and her answer to the serpent were false.

Mark, Mark, Mark,

How could God of told them both to be fruitful and increase in number (Chp 1) if it wasn’t untel there was a “two of them” (after woman’s creation) that is, after chp 2? You’re reading the narratives as if the beginning wasn’t a real point in time.

This order may help more:

1. (GEN 2)
   Adam is given food to eat from the trees of the garden and a prohibition on one of the garden trees. (Gen 2:16-17)
2. (GEN 2)
   Eve is created. (Gen 2:22-25)
3. (GEN 1:28)
   Both are told to be fruitful and increase. Ofcourse this cannot be a command that’s only given to the man, now could it?!
4. (GEN 1:29)
   Both are given permission to eat from all trees on the earth that have fruit with seed. So Adam now has more to eat than just from the garden trees. (1:29)
5. (GEN 3:2,3)
   Eve gives her testimony that God gave them a prohibition.

Basicaly my point is, Gen 1 is not intended to be read in between Gen 2 and 3.

GEN 1
28 God blessed THEM and said to THEM, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you (PLURAL) every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Perhaps Mark, you have a better idea of WHEN God told BOTH to be fruitful and increase in number if not “in between chp 2 and 3? The information within the chapters are meant to be integrated since they tell of the one and only time, the beginning.

you must also keep in mind that the dialogue between the serpent and the women is the context. So when i talk about omission of ‘all’ and ‘yhwh’, and the adding of ‘touching it’, this is because the woman is being deceived through the conversation.

Mark, you’ve no proof from the text that she was deceived when she answered the serpent’s question. Her answer was correct about what they could eat, putting aside your assumption that she knew the command God gave Adam before she was created. They both could eat fruit from the trees in the garden since both could eat fruit from trees on the entire earth. Her answer was framed according to the way the serpent framed his question – on garden trees. I don’t assume she knew the command given to Adam. There is not a shred of evidence that she knew it. In fact, when ALL the evidence is held up and compared, (including a comparison of God’s command to the serpent’s exact words) Eve is COMPLETELY oblivious as can be seen in her response to the serpent, to the command that God gave Adam when she wasn’t around.

She is being deceived into believing that God is stingy, she is being deceived into thinking that God is harsh. This is the context. PLease remember that. It seems that your comments are not really engaging with the text and context, but more with how i worded things in my answer.

How can you read Eve’s mind if you can’t see through her eyes? The text in Gen 3 explicitly shows us her perception of when she is decieved and that’s when she looks at the fruit as good. We can see through her eyes wihtout a doubt at that point. And tell me this, how could she think God stingy who gave her trees of the planet? That makes no sense at all, Mark. Please explain that?