T4G Comp Tied To Gospel

For instance, try to find this view of equality in Genesis 1-it’s just not there.

Duncan’s third point is one of the most embarrassing points that defies us to find equality in Genesis 1 when there is nothing but equality there!

When complementarians state so confidently that God initiated an unequal rule in Genesis without a single direct comment by God to this effect, they cause the world to see Christians as having freedom to change God’s Word to suit their own doctrines and the Word of God is devalued and set up to public shame.

They also cause the world to see christians as unable to read, or lacking in reading comprehension skills.

The Unadjusted Gospel, or the Paganized Gospel?
Once again, our hierarchicalist friends show their true colors by not only defaming and misrepresenting those who disagree with them, but also by engaging in a distorted and misleading revisionism of both of the history of biblical intrepreation, of Christian theology, and of the Gospel of Christ itself. Cheryl Schatz and other egalitarian scholars have given full and satisfactory answer to the various, absurd assertions being made by the leaders of this T4G2010 Conference, so I don’t intend to outdo their excellent and well-written articles and essays on these matters. But I cannot help but point out that the so-called “Unadjusted Gospel,” as regards its teaching on the relations both between men and women and between the Persons of the Trinity, is actually a “Paganized Gospel,” resting on the concept of the Chain of Being that was at the heart of the pagan Greek solution to the question, “Is reality utimately a unity or a diversity?”

Now this pagan Greek answer involves a hierarchy of being, contrary to the Creator-creature distinction of the Bible, where the most Superior and Perfect Being is at the top. And every being derived from this Being, as we travel down the chain, becomes progressively imperfect and inferior, until we reach the level of non-being. Unfortunately, as every student of philosophy and theology knows, it was through former Neo-Platonists, such as Origen, who in their understanding of both God and the created order, mixed this pagan concept with the Christian Faith. Dr. Alan Myatt, a long time friend, in a recent ETS paper criticizing the hierarchicalists position on the relationships existing between both the members of humanity and the Trinity, made this perceptive and revealing criticism:

The similarity of the notion of a chain of command of authority in the Trinity and in male-female relations to the non-Christian theory of the Great Chain of Being is no coincidence. Such notions originally were derived from the infusion of the Chain of Being philosophy into
Christian thought, which formed the presuppositional lens through which ancient, medieval and early modern Christians read their Bibles. The ontology of hierarchy is derived from this presupposition, a metaphysic at odds with the Christian doctrine of creation and the notion of the self-contained Triune God as presented in Scripture. It places the value and limits the function
of things according to their position in the hierarchy of Being. Current attempts to define the Trinity as an eternal hierarchy of authority and submission may be understood, then, as examples
of reading the Great Chain of Being back into the biblical text. The motive for this seems to be the preservation of an understanding of male-female role relations in the home and church that is also structured around the Chain of Being concept. It should be noted that this hierarchical understanding of these relations, indeed of the universe itself, is virtually ubiquitous in non-Christian, pagan thought throughout the world, both ancient and modern. Ancient mystery religions of the near east, as well as Hindu pantheism among others, show this tendency to structure the universe in a hierarchy of Being, with rigid social structures. In its more pure forms, unimpeded by any biblical influence, the tendency is for some type of cosmic evolution through which humans eventually become divine. One common factor is a hierarchy of divinities and a hierarchy of male over female. Patriarchy has been so universal in human society that it could be said to be the default mode of human existence (Cf. On the Compatibility of Ontological Equality, Hierarchy, and Functional Distinctions, p. 10).

Furthermore, our understanding of the unity and coequality of men and women in Christ, contrary to what is often charged against, is rooted both in Scripture and in the true renewal and transformation of the Church’s intellectual, moral, and socio-political life by the Holy Spirit himself. Again, as Dr. Myatt points out:

While complementarians persist in accusing egalitarians of yielding to the pressure of non-Christian culture in their handling of Scripture, it appears that just the opposite is true. If hierarchicalism is the fruit of a non-Christian world view, as I have contended, this has important implications. Traditional hierarchical biblical interpretation has been filtered through the lens of a cultural vision of human relations compromised by the absorption of a pagan world view grounded in the Great Chain of Being. This effectively blinded it to the egalitarian implications of the biblical text. Contrary to being a capitulation to culture, the egalitarian impulse is a historical development running against the tide of
these assumptions, that surfaced in Britain and America as the implications of Reformation theology began to saturate
the culture in the wake of the Great Awakenings of the 18th and 19th centuries.38 It came into full bloom among evangelicals in the abolition and suffrage movements of the 19th century. Under pressure from egalitarian readings of Scripture, the hierarchical vision has been in a steady retreat ever since. The Bible’s teachings of the ontological equality of all persons has done away with the rule of kings in favor or democracy, the enslavement of Africans in favor of equal civil rights for all races, and the political and social subordination of women in favor of suffrage and the rights to education and a career (Ibid, p.11).

And so instead of teaching the Liberating Gospel of Christ, which Paul sets forth before us in Gal 3-5, where the people of God serve on the basis of their maturity, Spirit-giftedness and calling–these self-appointed “super champions of the faith” are teaching a different and harmful message, which focuses on the pagan chain of being, understood in terms of gender and gender-specific rules. For these particular teachers and those inclined to follow them, Paul’s rebuke is most appropriate: “I promised you as a pure bride to one husband-Christ. But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the Serpent. You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preached, or a different kiind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed” (2 Cor. 11:2-4, NLT).

Wow! Right on, Frank!

Thank you, Cheryl! I get so much from your work in this very important area. God bless you.

Frank,
Thanks for your extensive comments especially regarding cultural pressure, the Trinity and the harm of gender specific rules in opposition to Spirit-giftedness. There is much to think about.

Karen, thanks for your encouragement.

“Two, and following on the first point, the church’s confidence in the clarity of Scripture is undermined, because if you can get egalitarianism from the Bible, you can get anything from the Bible.”

What a straw man!

I think this is the Galatian hearsy… something attached to the gospel that turns it into something else.

Arlene,
Anytime we attach anything to the gospel we are in serious danger. I know that there are pastors who can see this but have not yet publicly said anything. I appeal to their love of the Lord and their love of the gospel to make a stand. There is a greater judgment when we say we can see and yet we do exactly what the Bible says not to do. And when we stand by and let others do this to the gospel, what will the Lord say to us? Adam stood silently by while his wife was being deceived. He was not deceived so he knew the truth. Yet he said nothing. When good men say nothing and allow the error to thrive, they will be held accountable for that. We must hold to the truth no matter how much we have to go against the crowd. Surely the fear of man should not be greater than our fear of God.

Well, Cheryl, I’m glad I was able to share something that was significant and helpful on addressing this topic. Though, in transferring my comments from a MS Word document, the format of my paragraphs got skewed a bit. Still, I am glad it was readable and useful, despite that little glitch.

And there was so much more that I would like to have said about these people who are preaching a different gospel other than the one that was preached by Christ and the Apostles. Which means, of course, that it is not truly “the good news” of the new life and freedom through union with Christ that we find in Galatians. For it denies that all of Abraham’s family, both sons and daughters, are to have their full inheritance rights as those who, with Christ, will possess and reign over the earth–which is a key element of the covenantal promises God gave to Abraham (cf. Gen. 17:3-7 with Gal. 3:26-4:7 and Rom. 4:13-18).

However, with learning necessary skills for my new job as audit support consultant, working on a third Trinity essay, and preparing a study on 1st John, I find my time to prepare comments a bit more limited than I would like. Nevertheless, whenever it comes to contending for the Gospel Faith against those who seek to pervert it for their own self-serving agendas, I will make an effort to do so.

Hi Frank,
Unfortunately glitches can happen if you use MS Word to transfer comments to my blog. If you copy them and past them into Notepad first and then copy and paste from Notepad back to the blog, the bad formatting should disappear. The blog for some reason doesn’t always like MS Word formatting. ):

I will list several reasons why men who’ve “held the reigns” in today’s churches have turned them into Satan’s paradise. They who believe that it is God that has told them they must be the “spiritual leaders” over all in the congregation are and have been running their “churches” (for many centuries now) as falsely as Satan is false. These deceived men are commandeering them as any government or corporation would run them; just as worldly as it gets. They’ve fallen for Satan’s great flim flam. Satan has infiltrated and planned it. Men, if you believe this is what God wants, you’ve been so had and you will be held accountable for it. Your arrogance and pride will be your downfall just as it was for Satan.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

WHEN MOSES WAS PUNISHED BY GOD FOR NOT DEMONSTRATING GOD’S HOLINESS AMONG THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, IT [WAS NOT] FOR ANGER ON MOSES’ S PART IN STRIKING THE ROCK AS MOST OF TODAY’S CHURCH ARE TAUGHT AND BELIEVE. THE REASON THAT MOSES WAS PUNISHED (WITH NOT BEING ABLE TO GO INTO THE PROMISED LAND, A SHADOW AND TYPE OF OUR NEW LAND WHICH GOD HIMSELF WILL BRING), WAS THAT HE EXALTED HIMSELF WHEN HE SAID, “MUST WE BRING YOU WATER FROM THIS ROCK?”

From Numbers 20: Then he and Aaron summoned the people to come and gather at the rock. “Listen, you rebels!” he shouted. “Must we bring you water from this rock?”

ONLY GOD CAN BRING WATER FROM A ROCK. YET MOSES, BEING UPSET WITH THE PEOPLE, GOT WAY AHEAD OF HIMSELF AND PORTRAYED HIMSELF, MOSES, AS THE BRINGER OF WATER. AS MOSES DID, MAN7Y OF TODAY’S “CHURCH LEADERS” ARE EXALTING THEMSELVES; PORTRAYING THEMSELVES AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOD.

A few blashpemies from the men with “god-given authority”:

A MAN OF SORROWS
ASKS
IS YOUR “HOUSE OF GOD” RUN LIKE A BUSINESS??

Man…this “Together for the Gospel” thing really ruffles my feathers. To have the unmitigated nerve to call it the “Unadjusted Gospel”, and then to twist the Gospel message in order to have it fit their ideology (idolatry?) is the height of arrogance.

Unless I’ve totally missed something in the Gospels themselves, I don’t see even a HINT of complementarianism in the texts. It just isn’t in the Fab Four (and no I’m not talking about the Beatles; the Fab Four is my nickname for the Canonical Gospels). And if I have missed it, I’m glad I did miss it…I’m not sure God would have given me a strong mind and a big mouth if all He intended for me was to just be a sweet little doormat (!), as complementarian theology in its most extreme forms suggests I be. Grrrrr.

All right I just stumbled across this blog by googling women together for the Gospel and am glad I found it. I am confessedly someone who greatly admires the pastors present at T4G and has benefited immensely from their preaching.

I was googling women and T4G together because I had read a reference to 7,000 men being at T4G and was trying to figure out if women were not invited, not there, or if that comment wasn’t truly representative of the conference. I hope the conference was open to women, it would be a true embarassment if it were not.

All that said I wanted to interject perhaps a bit of a moderate note here. Again I am someone who has benefited greatly from the preaching of men like Ligon Duncan. I am also someone who is not completely sold on Complementarianism yet and fully believes that there are many wonderfully Orthodox egalitarian disciples of Christ out there.

Because of that background it both upsets me when Complementarianism is too rabid AND when people writing against Complementarians are too rabid (Complementarian Churches= Satan’s Paradise? Really? Come on now.) Ligon Duncan is a Godly man who is I would agree overly committed to his complementarian theology. He is also a brilliant Pastor and Theologian who should not be dismissed merely because he holds to firmly to a theological issue that should not be front and center in our faith and orthodoxy.

It seems to me like many of the commenters on this blog who are criticizing the Complementarians at T4G for making the Church/Gospel closeminded and cult like are doing the exact same thing by completely writing off these Complementarian yet Orthodox theologians. Just as I think it’s a travesty that Ligon Duncan would not affirm an orthodox egalitarian as having a place in the Church I think it’s a travesty that many of the previous commenters seem to not want to affirm an orthodox complementarian as having a place in the Church. You are doing the very thing you are critical of!

One final note for the (un)adjusted Gospel theme. It’s my understanding that Complementarianism is not a building block of the (un)adjusted Gospel. It is elevated in the theology of men like Ligon Duncan and the rest of T4G but I think that they would be willing to affirm that this is more as a response to current debates than it is a clear complementarianism in the Gospels.

These men at T4G are more concerned about the adjusted Gospels of prosperity, old school liberalism, universalism etc. They are far more concerned about preserving the two natures of Christ, Biblical innerancy, the sinfulness of humanity, and the mediatorial nature of Christ than they are about preserving complementarianism. Although again they unfortunately group complementarianism in with the rest it is subordinate to the other doctrines in importance and focus.

Hope this made some sense. I hate to see Godly orthodox egalitarians slandered and I equally hate to see Godly orthodox complementarians slandered. Let us not fall into either trap

Forgive me for when I used Orthodox instead of orthodox, not referencing the Orthodox Church ever but orthodoxy

Grant, welcome to my blog!

I appreciate your comments and your call to moderation.

The issue here is not about secondary issues but about the primary issue that has had an addition of a secondary issue as necessary. If we allow a separation like this then it will be easy to dismiss godly Christian brothers and sisters in Christ as outside the faith merely for disagreeing on a non-essential doctrine.

There have been some really serious talk in the CBMW group about egalitarians as ones who are either in heresy or heading towards heresy merely because we believe that God can call and gift women and use them for the benefit of the body of Christ. I have heard the sermons myself and I can’t tell you how sad it makes me feel. But when the line is crossed by listing complementarianism as essential and necessary for the gospel to be preached and for converts to be educated on the essentials of the faith, we need to make a stand so the rift that has occurred in the body will not lead to complete separation. This is divisive and dangerous and unhealthy. We simply cannot add our own secondary doctrines to the gospel and expect it will be tolerated. While I commend the T4G men for standing up to defend the gospel against the challenges of liberalism, they have taken it too far by adding egalitarianism as a challenge to the gospel.

We need to take out our spiritual knives and cut away the false and perverted gospel but we dare not cut deep into the gospel itself and graft in a supposed essential addition unknown through Church history.

I really do appreciate your gracious tone and your appeal to balance. I too am interested in balance but I allow people to speak freely here especially out of their hurt and mistrust of men who have stifled them and taught churches to hold women back in contradiction to the direct call and gifting of God. Many forums will not allow egalitarians to speak freely. This blog is not like those that restrict free speech.

As far as T4G, my message to these men would be to go back to treating us as dear brothers and sisters in Christ and keep this issue as a secondary issue of faith and leave it out of the gospel.

You also mentioned the issue of whether there were women in the T4G conference and I can assure you that there were very few allowed. Because the conference is so popular, the organizers gave men preference so that men who wanted to attend were not kept away and displaced by women. The event is primarily for pastors and church workers and since they believe that these should be men, it isn’t surprising that the group was made up of almost exclusively men.

But does this really make it “Together for the Gospel”? With the complementarian message it is men alone who are to teach doctrine to the church so women do not appear to be needed in the togetherness for the gospel. I don’t think that men really understand what they are missing out on when they exclude their sisters in Christ. God’s gifts are all necessary no matter what vessel that God decides to use.

Thanks again for your comments!

KW,

I realy have no idea what to make of everything you wrote. There are moments of clarity and wonderful confessions like when you mention your testimony of having ignored God and Jesus grabbing hold of you, but then most of what you write seems angry and parts of it incomprehensible. I don’t want to be harsh on you, I don’t know you and I am sure you are a wonderful woman, it also seems like you are passionate about God. However please allow me this word of advice.

It seems like your vision of true Christianity is so small that it is almost cultish. This was my fear with your objections to complementarianism as Satanic. Although I am sure that there are some complementarians who are influenced by the evil one, most that I know are very Godly men who are trying to be faithful to Scripture just as you are.

I saw this fear confirmed in the parts of your last two messages I could understand. You railed against war for a while, and while I believe it’s completely legitimate for Christians to object to war if you are going to argue that Christians who support something like just-war theory (look it up on Wikipedia if you aren’t familiar) are not actually Christian than you just made massive chunks of historical Christianity (including St. Augustine!) non Christian.

You also speak out against denominations, fair I guess because Paul does this as well. But Paul also writes in 1 Corinthians 11:19 “There must be factions among you so that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.”

I wonder KW who the “true Christians” are to you. From reading your posts I couldn’t help but wonder if you are the only person in the world who meets your qualifications for being someone who isn’t offensive to God and can stand before Him. Your zeal is admirable, but you seem zealous for things that the Bible is not zealous for. Jesus certainly speaks about our not taking oaths, but the rest of the New Testament seems far more concerned about making sure that we understand that He is God more than it does that we not take oaths.

There’s lots of bad theology out there, but having bad theology doesn’t make one an enemy of God. There is bad theology and there is heresy and apostasism, you seem to roll them together. This is infinitely dangerous as it gives the Church no room to discern where there is room to disagree on an issue and where the Church should take her stand.

From Grant: KW,
I realy have no idea what to make of everything you wrote.

To Grant, I wouldn’t expect you to…..yet.

Cheryl, I’ve attempted to several times to post the the 2nd portion of what I’ve testified/written and the site is not able to produce it. A message came up stating it was a duplicate and it is not. Thank you

KW,
I know that you have posted on this site before and I usually try to welcome each new person. If I failed to welcome you, I am sorry. That would be a failure on my part.

You said that you wrote to me and I didn’t answer. I did a search of my gmail account for your email address to see what it was that I missed and I found it and I now know why I didn’t answer. The email was marked as “to answer” but it was so overwhelming it was left until I had time to wade through it and that time just never came. When it was transferred to Word, it was 234 pages long!!!

So I briefly skimmed through it and it was filled with quotes about Zionist Israel and quotes about China, talk about the CIA and George Bush, a long history of the US and vaccinations, politics, satan’s system, Mormonism as a “denomination”, the Vatican and secret societies, Project paperclip, none of which are applicable to this blog.

I have pulled out a couple of quotes from what you wrote. You said:

According to His Words, pray always that we may be accounted worthy to escape all things that will come about. We should pray continuously that we will never be deceived, and we will never deceive anyone as well. We must be aware, that things are not as they appear to be.

We really have to forget everything we’ve been taught by mankind and traditon. When we do these things, we will learn and then know Him. We will learn how to pray and what to pray for, so we don’t pray amiss. We must know Him if we are to know what to pray for.
If you cannot find a church that truly follows Pure Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty, follow the lead of Paul, Peter; the TRUE ANNOINTED TEACHERS of the Word. Seek like minded people and gather any place you’d like to. Perfect solution.

When I read these words, I feel like what Grant wrote. It seems to me that you feel that true Christianity is extremely small and most churches are not following God in any way.

The Scriptures tell us that we need to gather together with other Christians so that we may be fed by God’s word and we may receive correction. The attitude of submissiveness that we are instructed to have as Christians is important so that we can receive the gifts that others have in the body of Christ. If we do not submit to learn and submit to being corrected we can go off into an extreme left field and not even notice where we have been deceived ourselves. The gathering together is for our own safety.

I appreciate all the verses that you quoted in the email you sent me but hundreds and hundreds of verses put together with warnings about false churches and deception is overwhelming and it makes me wonder how you can know that you are not being deceived yourself without apparent fellowship in the body of Christ. You said at one part:

Remember, if there is deception, a person will not even know that they are in deception.

I agree. We need the church as the body of Christ to help us recognize our own deception so that if we are at a place where we claim that we can “see” but we are really “blind” that we can have correction.

One other thing, kw, I waded through my spam box and there are 9 comments that are filled with stuff on Zionism. I am not going to “rescue” the comments from the spam box because they are not on topic and the long comments are difficult to wade through. I can’t have my blog taken over by other topics as this blog is dedicated to women in ministry and God’s word on that subject.

Also I really can’t see myself being able to read the 234 pages that you sent me. My time is limited at best and I have a difficult time even keeping up with the comments on my own blog. All I can do is ask people here to pray for you that God will help you find a place of fellowship where you will be free to submit yourself to the teaching of the Word and correction.

Cheryl, the 9 comments were attempts to get the 2nd portion posted. But, thank you, I know and can appreciate that your time is limited.
Hi, Grant,

It is most sincere desire that you and others take a good look at what you’re doing/teaching in the Name of God.

you wrote:

‘KW,

It seems like your vision of true Christianity is so small that it is almost cultish.’

Matthew 7:13-15 “Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it.
Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it. “Take heed of those false prophets who are coming to you in the apparel of sheep, yet inside they are rapacious wolves.

Luke 13:23-27 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Romans 9:27 Concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, “Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand on the seashore, only a small number will be saved.

Romans 11:5 It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few are being saved as a result of God’s kindness in choosing them.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

you wrote ‘This was my fear with your objections to Complementarianism as Satanic. ‘

Again, here’s what I wrote: ‘I will list several reasons why men who’ve “held the reigns” in today’s churches have turned them into Satan’s paradise.

They who believe that it is God that has told them they must be the “spiritual leaders” over all in the congregation are and have been running their “churches” (for many centuries now) as falsely as Satan is false. These deceived men are commandeering them as any government or corporation would run them; just as worldly as it gets. They’ve fallen for Satan’s great flim flam. Satan has infiltrated and planned it. Men, if you believe this is what God wants, you’ve been so had and you will be held accountable for it. Your arrogance and pride will be your downfall just as it was for Satan.’

Grant, you’re so caught up with the thought that [everything] is “complementarian”. Most people don’t even know what the heck that is!!

What I did write and emphatically stated is that the entire pile of man-made doctrines, the adding to and taking away of Scripture is what has turned the entire religious/clergy/hierarchal (I cannot call it God’s ekklesia) system into a Satan’s paradise. Just as there is no grey what-so-ever in pedophilia, there is no grey with what God has Written. John 14:21 He who has My Commandments and keeps them, [it is he who loves Me.] And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and Manifest Myself to him.”John 14:15 “If you love me, obey My Commandments.

you wrote ‘I saw this fear confirmed in the parts of your last two messages I could understand. You railed against war for a while, and while I believe it’s completely legitimate for Christians to object to war if you are going to argue that Christians who support something like just-war theory (look it up on Wikipedia if you aren’t familiar) are not actually Christian than you just made massive chunks of historical Christianity (including St. Augustine!) non Christian.’

I am aware of the “just war theory”. This is exactly what I am speaking out against. You put more import in a created-man’s opinion. He deceived others into believing this blasphemy. Just perfect, keep believing mere men instead of believing Lord Jesus Christ.

I ask you, where in any verse, did Lord Jesus Christ, His OT prophets, or His NT apostles/disciples ever speak about killing in the Name of God, to fight for flag and country, to form a coup against the Roman govt or killing in self-defense. He never did/never will. He Commanded just the opposite.

Isaiah 53 Acts 7:59-60 Acts 14:19-22 1Corinthians 4:9-13

Are you better than Lord Jesus Christ, His OT prophets, or His NT apostles/disciples that only they and others were/would be killed for the witness=martyrdom of the Testimony of Lord Jesus Christ?

Did God give you permission to support/go to war, to kill and cause orphans, widows, famine? Not to mention the young men being killed in war. He tells us to plead the cause of the widow and orphan.

Psalm 146:9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.

Isaiah 1:23 Your leaders are rebels, the companions of thieves. All of them take bribes and refuse to defend the orphans and the widows.

Zechariah 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Read 1 Samuel Chapter 8

Does this mean anything at all to you “Thou shalt not kill.

you wrote ‘You also speak out against denominations, fair I guess because Paul does this as well. But Paul also writes in 1 Corinthians 11:19 “There must be factions among you so that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.” ‘

Yes, and at the time of the first resurrection, there will only be a remnant.

you wrote ‘I wonder KW who the “true Christians” are to you. From reading your posts I couldn’t help but wonder if you are the only person in the world who meets your qualifications for being someone who isn’t offensive to God and can stand before Him.’

That’s just plain silly. I certainly am not, however there will be only a remnant that will make it into the 1st Resurrection.

you wrote ‘Your zeal is admirable, but you seem zealous for things that the Bible is not zealous for.’

Interesting. What you just wrote is that God is divided against God. How can that be? The things I put down are from His Word and His Holy Spirit. The Bible is only a map to Lord Jesus Christ. He is Alive, Breathing and Speaking to us now, to our spirit, if we have ears to hear. The problem with the wise ones of today, is that they are busy talking amongst themselves instead of waiting for the Holy Spirit to Guide them in [everything.]

you wrote ‘Jesus certainly speaks about our not taking oaths, but the rest of the New Testament seems far more concerned about making sure that we understand that He is God more than it does that we not take oaths.’

Your replies just get unbelievably worse as it goes on. You place the importance of “rest of the New Testament” as if anything Lord Jesus says earlier on is less important than something later written.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of My Mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

your comment: ‘making sure that we understand that He is God more than it does that we not take oaths.’

James 2:19 Do you still think it’s enough just to believe that there is one God? Well, even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror!

Psalm 119:126 It is time for You to act, O LORD, For they have regarded Your law as void.

you wrote ‘There’s lots of bad theology out there, but having bad theology doesn’t make one an enemy of God. There is bad theology and there is heresy and apostasism, you seem to roll them together. This is infinitely dangerous as it gives the Church no room to discern where there is room to disagree on an issue and where the Church should take her stand.’

Again, God says otherwise through Paul in: Philippians 3:17-18 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so, as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ

your comment: [‘This is infinitely dangerous as it gives the Church no room to discern where there is room to disagree on an issue and where the church should take her stand’]….

My comment

is where Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the Head of the church, the Rock in which we take our marching orders from. The church is a non-entity unless we give our all to Lord Jesus Christ/never to a man-made/man-driven doctrines taught in man-made/man-driven seminaries.

Acts 20: 29-31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears

Again, just as in Numbers 20:10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? As though mankind could even blink an eye without God. Wake up and grow up, now while you can.

All of Amos Chapter 8

Amos 8: 4 Hear this, you who swallow up the needy, And make the poor of the land fail,

Amos 8:11-12 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord GOD, “That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD. They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD, But shall not find [it].

kw,

I appreciate you are zealous, but I agree with Grant that there are things to divide over and things not to divide over. Division that is over the non-essentials is very bad. This is the point of my post.

Again, God says otherwise through Paul in: Philippians 3:17-18 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so, as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ

When Paul talked about the enemies of the cross of Christ, he was not talking about true Christians. The non-essentials should never divide us as Christians and it is a very serious to get to the point of identifying someone as an enemy of the cross of Christ. We do not identify such a one because they are a soldier or go to war.

During his preaching of repentance John the Baptist said:

Luke 3:9 (NASB)
9 “Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

The crowd then asked John what they needed to do. He told them what would be signs of repentance. When some soldiers approached John he did not tell them that repentance was for them to stop being soldiers. Rather than condemn them for being soldiers, the Bible relates the account:

Luke 3:14 (NASB)
14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

There was no condemnation for being a soldier, but they were to be content with their wages.

Now I am asking that we put a period to these discussions that are off topic. While I appreciate that Christians can discuss these issues, I don’t want my blog to be a place of dialog on war, government, conspiracy theories, etc because this takes away from what I am trying to do here. It gets us off the task of encouraging women to obey God in the way that He has called them.

So please, let’s stay on topic so that I don’t need to moderate the comments. I really hate having to do that as I believe in free expression but within proper boundaries.

Thanks!

Grant and Cheryl, I didn’t know what to make of kw’s “comments,” but I think your responses were appropriate, and so I won’t say any more about it. However, Grant, I think you need to understand where some of us are coming from, and why our response to hierarchical complementarians appears to be so, well, firm and uncompromising.

Many of us were at one time of that same persuasion ourselves, you know. Yet when someone challenged us, on the basis of Acts 2, 1 Cor 12-14, 2 Cor 5:11-21, and Gal 3:26-4:7 to carefully examine and rethink our position, because we cared about the truth, justice, righteousness and shalom of Christ’s present and coming kingdom, which is to be expressed in our individual and corporate lives as both citizens and representatives of his kingdom–because of this commitment, we investigated the inspired and authoritative Word of God, using the historical-cultural-grammatical method of interpretation, to see if our egalitarian friend’s challenge held any water. And lo and behold, the Spirit of truth revealed to us, through those same Scriptures, that our friends were right and we were wrong!

But what happened when we told other complementarians how we came to know the truth? They accused us of abandoning the inspiration and authority of Scripture, and of capitulating to a godless, secular and Scripture-twisting philosophy! And when we tried to reason with them from Scripture, we found that they were closed minded–unwilling to consider that the traditional inteprepretation might be wrong and demanding that we turn away from our error and folly.

Now, I don’t know much about Mr Duncan or his writings. But I do know John Piper and R.C. Sproul, whose writings on Christ’s atonement and the Attributes of God I have read with profit. And on most other issues, I would consider them orthodox. But as regards their teaching on the hierarchical relationships existing not only between men and women, but also those between the Three Persons of the Trinity–from my studies of Scripture, theology and Christian history, I would have to say they have become heterodox.

So as one trained to be a teacher, preacher and defender of the Gospel Faith, I am going to speak out against them on those points where I am convinced they have departed from orthodox Christianity, and I will make no apology for doing so. Now, Grant, you may still disagree with me about these issues, but I hope you understand why some of Mr. Duncan’s comments come across as insults and attacks against our intellectual, moral and spiritual integrity, to which we do not take very kindly.

To Cheryl:

you wrote ‘KW,
I know that you have posted on this site before and I usually try to welcome each new person. If I failed to welcome you, I am sorry. That would be a failure on my part.

You said that you wrote to me and I didn’t answer. I did a search of my gmail account for your email address to see what it was that I missed and I found it and I now know why I didn’t answer. The email was marked as “to answer” but it was so overwhelming it was left until I had time to wade through it and that time just never came. When it was transferred to Word, it was 234 pages long!!!’

my comment: I never wrote that you “didn’t welcome me on your site”; because you did. I didn’t mark my email to answer; I don’t even know how to do that. What I posted was that when I emailed you, thanking you for your article on the 12 apostles, that I had wished you’d just had acknowledged me via email to basically say hi. I never said nor expected you to reply concerning my paper. The only reason I sent you the paper was to show you, in agreeing with you, that God is/has been calling women to teach. I also believe that we, all of us, men/women are here to correct the grave errors that are taught in the religious settings that are called churches. Just wanted to set the record straight.

you wrote: ‘So I briefly skimmed through it and it was filled with quotes about Zionist Israel and quotes about China, talk about the CIA and George Bush, a long history of the US and vaccinations, politics, satan’s system, Mormonism as a “denomination”, the Vatican and secret societies, Project paperclip, none of which are applicable to this blog.’

Cheryl, the first 200+ pages were all Scripture and inspired teaching of that Scripture. I put the Scripture teachings out first and then later what the world gov’ts are up to. The secular info was placed to show why we should never trust mankind/governments and to teach that the entire world is deceived including most of the church. You made it sound as though it was nothing but kooky conspiracy theories. There was a reason as to why I placed everything in it’s proper order. And that is to show that as God warned/is warning us in: Jeremiah 17: Thus says the LORD: “Cursed [is] the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD. For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And [shall not see when good comes], But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, In a salt land which is not inhabited. Where was your discernment in all of that?

you wrote: ‘kw,

‘I appreciate you are zealous, but I agree with Grant that there are things to divide over and things not to divide over. Division that is over the non-essentials is very bad. This is the point of my post.’

‘Again, God says otherwise through Paul in: Philippians 3:17-18 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so, as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ’

‘When Paul talked about the enemies of the cross of Christ, he was not talking about true Christians. The non-essentials should never divide us as Christians and it is a very serious to get to the point of identifying someone as an enemy of the cross of Christ. We do not identify such a one because they are a soldier or go to war.’

My comment: I realize that only a remnant of true Christians; the ones who obey God are never the enemies of the cross. That’s basic knowledge.
you wrote: ‘to get to the point of identifying someone as an enemy of the cross of Christ. We do not identify such a one because they are a soldier or go to war.’

My comment: The false “leaders” of the “churches” teaching and leading astray are the true enemies of the cross. I wrote the entire pile of false teaching which includes the promoting of and endorsing war. These I listed are not “non-essentials”. This is serious and never non-essentials.

you wrote: ‘During his preaching of repentance John the Baptist said:

Luke 3:9 (NASB)
9 “Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” ‘
my comment: I agree which is what my entire post is about.

you wrote: ‘The crowd then asked John what they needed to do. He told them what would be signs of repentance. When some soldiers approached John he did not tell them that repentance was for them to stop being soldiers. Rather than condemn them for being soldiers, the Bible relates the account:’

‘Luke 3:14 (NASB)
14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” ‘

‘There was no condemnation for being a soldier, but they were to be content with their wages.’

my comment: I agree; there was no condemnation to being a soldier:

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, [Do violence to no man], neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

I perceive that my posts may not have been read. Perhaps just skimmed over which would explain the serious errors that have been put forth in what I’m trying to impart.

you wrote: ‘Now I am asking that we put a period to these discussions that are off topic. While I appreciate that Christians can discuss these issues, I don’t want my blog to be a place of dialog on war, government, conspiracy theories, etc because this takes away from what I am trying to do here. It gets us off the task of encouraging women to obey God in the way that He has called them.’

‘So please, let’s stay on topic so that I don’t need to moderate the comments. I really hate having to do that as I believe in free expression but within proper boundaries.’

‘Thanks!’

My comment: I understand, but that’s exactly what I’m doing; a woman in the ministry teaching what Christ has taught me for the benefit of the church.

I respect you, Cheryl, but the non-essentials seems to be the focusing solely on the men vs women. Yes, it is important, but for all of the trillions of words written on this topic, where are the other gravely important false doctrines issues that should be discussed amongst all of Christendom for the benefit of the Coming of the Lord.

I’ve said my peace, pun intended, and thank you for the opportunities.

Frank,
Thanks for sharing your story. I think what you went through helps all of us to understand the challenges of the comp/egal issue especially in the story of one who has been on the other camp. That was very helpful, thank you!

kw,
We will just agree to disagree and leave it at that. While I could put in the time and effort to show where God Himself sent people to war, and I have done so in the past with JW’s who condemn the church for allowing anyone in the military, I just cannot stretch myself any thinner right now. I have so little time and I am not going to fight about the non-essentials. I am horribly behind on my emails as I am the only one answering right now and without help and I feel very guilty about that. There isn’t enough of me to go around and I choose to draw the line at arguing about things that are not necessary to the gospel.

So thanks for understanding.

Sad…truly sad that orthodoxy now seemingly requires a complementarion stance.