For whom did Jesus die? 13 Biblical witnesses on Christ’s death

@BtheCalvinist and I have been having twitter discussions on this post. I am going to put a summary of his comments here in the discussion section and then provide a fuller response as I believe his objections are worthy of answering here where there is more room to respond.

My question is “Why does the Bible never say that Jesus did not die for the goats?” @BtheCalvinist responded that “this is seriously as silly as the homosexual saying he didn’t speak against homosexual marriage. However Jesus did give a positive presentation of what marriage is. From the beginning it has been 1 man & 1 woman. Enough said. Why should he now run the list of what marriage is not? Are you saying Jesus is deceptive here? Why not since you say it concerning Christ(‘s) death.” What B is essentially saying is that Jesus only gave a positive expression of marriage and we cannot assume that there is no negative expression just because He did not mention it. My answer: First of all, Jesus did exclude homosexual marriage since Jesus stated very clearly that marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman. That is an exclusive expression about marriage in a positive expression. But Jesus did not leave it at that. He also showed what is not allowed as God’s design for marriage. Jesus disallowed 1 man and 1 woman coming together in marriage if there is adultery. This is a negative expression and Jesus made it clear that coming together in “marriage” through adultery remains adultery. What B is also doing is trying to find another example where only the positive is defined in an important matter with no negative or opposing definition is also made. By attempting this B is affirming my statement in the article that there is NO statement by Jesus or any other Biblical author that states clearly that Jesus did NOT die for person(s) or a group of persons. This means that the statements of who Jesus died for stand exactly as they are given without qualification. My argument is solid and no homosexual could use my reasoning and make a valid argument. This means that all of the “whole” inclusive statements about the people for whom Christ died including the ungodly, sinners, the world, all men, all, the many, enemies, friends, us make a huge box around mankind. I asked B what IF Jesus actually died for all people, what word could God has used to show that it was all people. I didn’t get an answer, and frankly I don’t have an answer either. The words that are used are breath-taking and all together they give us no reason to doubt God’s word. Jesus died for all people.

I would like to also add that Jesus was NOT deceptive about marriage. He made it clear. He was also NOT deceptive about for whom He would die. Then Bible doesn’t say that He died for SOME sinners. He also didn’t die for a select amount of the ungodly. He died for the entire group. “The” many is a term that encompasses it all.

Further on @BtheCalvinist and his view that the definition of for whom did Christ did, does not need a qualification on the other side of the coin “For whom did Jesus NOT die?”, I say that it is highly important if God said Jesus died for sinners, but He really meant SOME sinners. If God leaves the parameters at “sinners” then we have to all qualify as those for whom Christ died. This is what the Christian church through the ages has taught. But when it comes to Calvinism, a Calvinist can read that Jesus died for sinners and Jesus died for the ungodly, but in his or her mind the Calvinist has to switch it up to mean only the sinners who have been pre-chosen from eternity past. What this does is make Calvinists read into the text something that is not there and forces them to put on their “Calvinist” glasses when reading some text lest they stumble by the clear meaning of the text.

Hi Cheryl! 🙂 I’ve been away for a while. Starting to get caught up. I love your challenge to Calvinists. I’ve been using my downtime to work on a project, dealing with Calvinism’s EXTREME view of ‘SOVEREIGNTY’ . What IS Sovereignty? Power and Authority. On the other hand, HOW that Sovereignty is exercised depends on the person possessing it. Need proof? HITLER was SOVEREIGN in Germany. He had absolute power and authority. God IS sovereign, YES, but it is HIS CHARACTER that decides how He uses that power. The Bible says ‘God is Love’. (1 John 4:8) Now what kind of LOVE, even in the human world, of lost sinners, commends a parent for running into a burning building to save ONE child and let the other burn alive? (especially when both kids are in the same room?!) I also did a study on the issue of ELECTION and made a lovely discovery. Something Calvinists might want to find out about. 1) Election is NOT to SALVATION but to SERVICE and BLESSING. How do I know this? Because MESSIAH was called “My ELECT in whom My soul delights.’ *** MESSIAH Isaiah 42:1 Behold, My Servant whom I uphold. 1 Peter 2:6 Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone. Elect and precious. And he who believes in HIM will not be put to shame.” How, might I ask, can Messiah be ‘Elect’ FOR Salvation, when He is the author OF Salvation? Good Angels. 1 Tim 5:21 “ I charge you, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ and the ELECT angels, that you observe all these things without prejudice- doing NOTHING with partiality. “ First off, these angels were already in heaven. What would they need to be saved for? 2nd, if someone would explain how this verse, as well as Acts 10:34 and Romans 2:11 jibes with four of the five petals of Calvinism’s Tulip? Most specifically Unconditional Election and LIMITED ATONEMENT. Jews/Israel Isaiah 45: 4 “Israel, My Elect. “ Elect to WHAT, exactly? Don’t think too many Jews, then or now, would be over the moon about being forced into salvation by someone they don’t acknowledge. So ‘elect’ has to have a very different connotation than Calvinists give it. In fact, they were the first, through whom God would show Himself to the world. And if you see what is going on in Israel; how they still stand, despite hostile neighbors, content on wiping them off the map. God is still working through that nation. Isaiah 65:9, 22 “I will bring forth descendants of Jacob and from Judah, and an heir of My mountains; My elect will inherit it. ….They shall not build and another inhabit….My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.” Matt 24:31 Gathering HIS elect from the four corners of the earth. This verse eludes to Jewish and Gentile believers, who’ve survived to the end of the great tribulation, where Anti-Christ’s armies have amassed for a major slaughter. There will be a slaughter, alright, but everyone will be surprised at who the victims will be. Especially the victims. And remember, this verse is speaking of the Great Tribulation. Called, in the Old Testament, “The time of Jacob’s Trouble”. So while there will be ‘tribulation saints’ during that time, God’s main focus will be the Jewish people. The Church; Romans 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s ‘elect’? It is GOD who justifies. The Church was ‘elect’ to be His witnesses, from the Apostles, to all who have believed since. Colossians 3:12 therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility and patience. Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect. **** As well, there are any number of verses that speak of God NOT showing partiality. IF the L (Limited Atonement) is true, then Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, and 1 Tim 5:21 are all lying. In John 3:17, as if Jesus could see Calvinism coming, said, “God did not send His son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD but that the WORLD, through Him, might be saved. If that doesn’t make the point, I don’t know what will! “So,” demands the Calvinist. “IF Christ died for the world, why isn’t everyone saved?” Because God, being TRULY sovereign, and KNOWING the end from the beginning, WITHOUT having to CREATE situations in order to know their outcome, gave us a CHOICE. It’s called FREE WILL. Joshua said, “CHOOSE this day, whom you will serve.” The Apostle Paul talked about his own battles with his fallen nature and his new man. (Romans 7:15-24) Those things I willed to do, I did not, those things I would not do, I did.” Let me ask the Calvinists on your page this question; If we do NOT have free will, and everything we do, from the Fall, to every tragedy and atrocity that has come after it, is GOD’S doing because Adam and Eve had no choice but to eat the forbidden fruit, then HOW can WE be held morally responsible for a choice we didn’t actually make? Imagine going into court, knowing that you are being tried for a crime that the JUDGE committed and then pinned on you? Would you think that was fair? If there is NO free will, and God was ultimately the author of the fall, then to try and condemn human kind for HIS actions would be THE ULTIMATE INJUSTICE of Time and Eternity, making God THE MOST UNJUST JUDGE. “For God so LOVED the WORLD…” Dear Calvinist, it is time to take your focus OFF John Calvin and put it on CHRIST. John Calvin didn’t die for you. John Calvin didn’t LOVE you. Christ did. Ooops. Sorry. 😮 Once I get going on this issue, my tongue (and fingers) have a mind of their own.

Gillian, That was a long comment for sure, but it shows that you are trying hard to think this issue through!

P.S. That should be, ‘Pulling me back from the BRINK!’

Gillian, I am SO glad that you didn’t chuck Christianity from seeing the view of God from Calvinism. I have seen others turned off and turned away from God because of that same view and it deeply saddens me. I want to work hard at simplifying this issue for others who have been presented a false view of God’s Sovereignty. He is Sovereign but still humble and His humility needs to be acknowledged as we see grace and mercy through the eyes of Jesus.

So am I (glad that I didn’t chuck Christianity). But, on at least three occasions in his book, Dave Hunt expressed some empathy for atheists who are turned against God because of the damnable heresy of Calvinism. There are any number of verses that come to mind; reflecting WHY Calvinism has made a resurgence. John 10:10 The thief comes not but for to steal, kill and destroy… 1Tim 4:1 “The spirit speaks expressly, that, in the latter times, many will depart from the faith; giving heed to DECEITFUL spirits and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS.” What utterly puzzles me is how so many people, saved by the Grace and LOVE of GOD can turn around and insist that others don’t have the same right. It’s kinda like what Jesus said to the Pharisees. He said that they wouldn’t go into the Kingdom, themselves, and stood in the way of others, who wanted to go in. The ‘heaven’ of Calvinism is more like a country club, where those already in the club get to…or THINK they get to say who will be granted membership. If you like, you can use that definition I discovered; That HOW sovereignty (power and authority) is exercised depends upon the person who possesses it. And I don’t remember a single occasion in all four of the Gospels where Jesus turned ANYONE away. The rich young ruler walked away. Many turned away as soon as Jesus went from telling stories and giving out free meals, to getting down to DOCTRINE. But Jesus said, “He who comes to me, I will, by no means, cast out.” I COULD be wrong, but I believe He was testing the resolve of the Cyro-Phoenician woman, whose daughter was possessed. “Yes, Lord, but even the little dogs eat the crumbles that fall from the master’s table.” Jesus also did NOT say, “Woman, you are using the faith I gave you, well. He said, “Woman, great is YOUR faith!” We all use our faith/ trust in good and bad ways. We can put faith in a mate, or a cause, a belief, or even, as so many do, our gadgets. Sometimes the trust is rewarded. Sometimes it’s betrayed. If GOD was the one handing out faith, then it would ALWAYS be rewarded because it would always be for good. Calvinism is a good example of people putting their faith in something that BETRAYS, because it is faith in a man-made system, like the Watchtower, Marian Catholicism, or any other system that takes our eyes off the God of the BIBLE and focuses our attention on human efforts to enter heaven. My guess is that heaven is the reward for any one who can figure out the system of Calvinism. In that case, I better stock up on marshmallows and hot dogs. 😉 SORRY for the overlong letters. :'( But this issue gets me going! For the rest of my down-time, (recovering from breast cancer surgery…caught it in time, but still a long process) …anywho, during what’s left of my downtime, I’m gonna work on getting my project (Conscience vs. Calvinism) finished and uploaded onto my blog. I’ll send you a link when I’m finished. Bless you for CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH!

I read a lot of the huge amount of words that have been written here. I think you can say it in less words: John 3: 16 God bless you all and please remember that God loves you. He is sad when people or circumstances hurt you. Trust in God and in Jesus Christ, no matter what happens!

Carolien, Thanks for your comment. I gave many examples of who Scriptures says that Jesus died for. While John 3:16 is a great verse, Calvinists take the term “world” to mean “the elect” and so for them the verse means that God so loved that elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (the elect) believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Because of the distortion of John 3:16 in the mind of a Calvinist, I added many other verses so that the broad example of the Scripture would show that ALL examples for whom Christ died, are broad and universal.

Cheryl and Gillian, I’ve has the exact same experience. After 30 years with God, I almost abandoned Him due to believing the lies pushed on me by a Calvinist. I’ve been involved with cult ministry – I would have thought I would have been more resilient to such an attack, but I fell hard. Thank God for His love and mercy and bringing me back to Him…

Vanessa, praise God for His love and mercy to you! So glad that you made it back. The enemy loves to distort the truth so that we see God as evil rather than good.