Witnessing On Worthy Boards

Hi Cheryl

I was a longtime member of WB. I went many rounds on this and other issues, but can only hope now that what was posted is still there somewhere and will someday help someone. Very few there will tolerate dissention from the mainstream, and their views are solidly hierarchical, both on the issue of women and of “church” itself with its clergy/laity distinction.

I looked at the thread and went about halfway through, and I saw that the same antagonists I had dealt with are still unwilling to stick to the actual questions and arguments, preferring instead to change the topic or set up straw men. You’re doing a fine job of trying to keep turning them back to the points you’re making, but they refuse to listen.

If you want to know why I finally left, please email me, as I have no desire to publicly humiliate them but will leave them to answer directly to God.

Cheryl,
I think you are “inhistime” on this board, is this true?

FWIIW, I have participated on some Internet forums, but it all can seem very chaotic to me as so many people are coming from so many different places (worldviews). It is also very easy to be misunderstood and misunderstand, think you are getting somewhere and finding out you are not, getting frustrated, etc.

It seems very difficult for this method to actually result in any major paradigm shift. From what I have seen, it is each person explaining why they believe as they do; this is not necessarily bad, but is also not very fruitful if one’s goal IS a paradigm shift.

My current view is that Internet forums are fine if one is trying to give a small insight or “tweak” as long as it does not cross the line of whatever that person considers a fundamental belief.

There are just some teachings that take some time to explain.

Teknomom,

I posted on Worthy Boards because I was asked to explain the importance of a second witness with regards to the women’s issue. For me it is a challenge in learning more about how to witness to my fellow Christians in a Christ-like way and to understand where they are coming from. Understanding the arguments against my position is very important to me so that I can be prepared to deal with those who will listen in the future to the egalitarian position but who first want all their hard questions answered. I also know that my work on the board is most likely fruitless with those who are “hard-core” complementarians but maybe there are lurkers who will read and be touched by a “breath of fresh air” on the subject. I will email you privately to get your take on why you left.

Don,

Yes I am “inhistime”. My goal is a paradigm shift but I am not expecting this on the board. The biggest paradigm shift may be with me learning how to understand how complementarians think and learning their objections so that I may be prepared to give an answer to anyone. You see, I am nothing less than a truth lover. If I take my views and make them public and then get raked over the coals for my arguments, then can be used by God for good. If my teaching is truth it WILL stand the test and it will be better because I will learn to see all the arguments against my position and be prepared to use these very arguments to witness of Jesus and his desire for the women in his church. What won’t kill me will make me stronger. Yet at the same time, if I am wrong in anyway, I can be corrected so that my position again because stronger.

I am believing that some day God will bring someone high up in the hierarchical movement to me who would be willing to dialog even if the reason is only to try to correct me. I want to be ready to answer respectfully and give reason for my faith in a gentle and effective way so that God can use me to reach someone who inside loves truth as I do, but who has been caught up in wrong teaching for so long that it would be hard for them to leave the “comfortable” teachings of hierarchy. If God does give me the desire of my heart to reach with love even one person like this who could then greatly impact the complementarian part of the church by their leaving, I would be so grateful to God.

The biggest problem I have is that complementarians will not talk to me. The friend that I had who caused me to research the bible to find out God’s view of women in ministry would not allow his complementarian view to be challenged and he left my friendship. I have asked CBMW to provide someone for me to dialog with and they too have refused. I have sought out complementarians in the past on the internet and tried to start a dialog with them and all I got was verbally attacked and judged as a sinner. Although I have very little time to put into boards like Worthy Boards, it is my way of trying to dialog and to hear the complementarian reaction to the understanding of scripture on the women’s issue that God has given me. I believe that if one has the truth on any given subject, and one is strong enough to be challenged, then one is better grounded if their faith is challenged. In the end truth is provable and will win. Error will need to attack the other person personally because error has no solid foundation in scripture. Test everything. Hold fast to that which is good.

Cheryl,

You have an admirable goal in wanting to dialog with a male hierarchalist, I agree it would be very consciousness raising for one of them to repudiate their previous ideas. FWIIW, I think at least one of their original people has asked to be taken off their list.

I also study their works, I find I can only take it in small doses, but I do study it. Iron sharpens iron. They do point out some egalitarian arguments that are lacking. I also want to find a way to respond to them if ever requested.

Here is a direct word God gave me for myself, “Love is more important than being right.” I have a temptation to want to win, to win even more than being loving, and God confronted me about this. Being a man, I can testify there is a hormone surge when one wins that is thrilling but dangerous. It is so very tempting to “slice and dice” and feed my flesh, but that is not the way of the Lord. One of the things I am learning from your CD set is how to better “disagree in love”.

Just a thought, one I haven’t seen yet in the WB thread (but of course it’s a little off-topic anyway):

Titus 1:5 says Titus was to “appoint elders”, and the Greek word is “presbuterous” (masc.). In chapter 2 verse 2 we see the words “presbutas” (masc.) and “presbutidas” (fem.). All have the same root word. Whoever is being appointed in ch. 1 is being addressed also in ch. 2, and the people they are to train are not **young** but **new believers**.

So the jaw-dropping teaching of scripture here is that the appointed (maybe even “ordained”) elders are to teach the new believers. What it does NOT say is that old women are to teach young women!

But the biggest point of all is that whoever is doing the teaching in ch. 2 had to be APPOINTED. Age cannot be appointed!

Just thought I’d share that.

Don,

Wow, if CBMW has already had someone leave the org, that is a very good thing. I hope that is true.

You said: “I also study their works, I find I can only take it in small doses, but I do study it.”

That is exactly how I handle the audio files. The written works I can handle a bit better, but I do need to take it in smaller doses. However the audio files have the inflection of the voice and I find it harder to take. If I listen to a couple of hours at a time I find myself upset with my husband merely because he is a man. He has to remind me that he is not CBMW nor does he agree with them at all. It is their attitude that really drags me down. They are brothers in Christ whom I do not find uplifting especially on the women’s issue. You know it is amazing. It seems like they spend a lot of their time figuring out all the rules that restrict women instead of finding all the ways that they can agree with allowing women to use their gifts. With these kinds of restrictions I sometimes wonder if they shouldn’t just agree to a men’s church and a women’s church. That way the women get to serve God within their own “church” without restriction. Problem with that is that this divides and segregates the body of Christ. That is not good and it is not the way it is to be.

Teknomom,

Good point that I had not seen before. I will do some more research on that!

Cheryl

Hi Cheryl,
you’re a warrior for God on WB!
It’s worth the frustration when you know you reached out to someone with God’s Word and helped them see the truth about those who would oppress them.
It gives them hope. Look how many people have read the topic! I pray many women will be comforted with God’s love and truth.

Thank you Noted!

This is what keeps me going knowing that there are many who read and are open to be touched with the truth of God’s word. I pray that God brings them great comfort in knowing that he has a plan to use women too!

I see the predictable ax has been swung… the topic has been locked. Yet look at the Eternal Security thread (“do you believe in once saved, always saved”) in the same Doctrinal Questions category… it has 1771 replies and over 24,000 views, yet it still isn’t locked! (Apparently the topic is only going in circles if the circle is “pink”.)

At the last CBMW conference (in Feb 2007) they declared that (at least to them anyway) they had “won” the exegetical debates on the “woman verses”. Given this mindset, it does seem doubtful that they would listen to anyone claiming contrary, regardless of their gender.

Don,

I have a couple of the DVDs from the conference. I have yet to stomach listening to the entire thing. Honestly they come across as arrogant and I have a problem in hearing too much of that attitude before it affects me and brings me down. In time I will listen again because I believe that truth can take a challenge. It is error that runs and hides.

I agree on the arrogant aspect, but it also makes me realize that I too have done this and can do it again. In my techie job, I have once been chided by a friend pointing out I was trying to “prove something by emphatic assertion”. When I teach in a church setting I try NOT to do this.

As my name is Don, my gender has even been questioned on a forum by the male hierarchalists wondering if I was really “Dawn” in disquise. Given the context, I took it an a badge of honor.

Well, Don, if it was up to me I would give you and every man who supports women like this a badge of honor!

For those of you who wonder if talking on forums can produce paradigm shifts, it can. I’ve been on many forums over the last several years. Not only have I seen people change their views, but I’ve seen wounded individuals find some comfort.

It is rarely the one you are discoursing with who changes course, but the onlookers. Although I have had experiences where a handful of people whom I have debated with have adjusted their views. What is always rewarding is when suddenly you find your arguments and research passed on by others. If what you say makes sense, someone will see it and be blessed by it.

“For those of you who wonder if talking on forums can produce paradigm shifts, it can. I’ve been on many forums over the last several years. Not only have I seen people change their views, but I’ve seen wounded individuals find some comfort. ”

This has happened to me, too. I have had onlookers e-mail me. My prayer is that everyone reading will be Bereans and check everything that is taught them them in the pulpit and everywhere.

Cheryl, One thing I noticed at the Worthy Boards is that those who are the most vehement about disallowing women to teach the Bible to men are the same ones who can never present factual data other than proof texting or special pleading to bolster their case. When you pressed one participant to show you the goods concerning the elusive “law” St. Paul refers to in 1 Cor. 14:34, that person could not produce one scripture that silences women anywhere in the old testament. That same individual went on to say that God does not have to provide any scriptural “witness” for any new testament stricture and that St. Paul’s apparent “commands” concerning women are legally binding for all believers and for all time.
I’ve seen this tap-dance before, even with complementarian scholars who should know better.

Justa Berean & Lin,

Ah, yes, the onlookers (the lurkers) are the real reason some of us try so hard. If it wasn’t for them, it would be just an experience of banging our heads against the wall.

Greg,

I see the tap dance too. It is an amazing thing to me. If my belief caused me to tap dance around questions and I saw holes in my argument, I would work hard to figure out why the holes are there or else change my view. For the life of me I can’t understand what people get out of dancing around the questions. Yes, I do know that an attack is seen by some as the best defense since one never has to provide proof of anything, but where is the honest assessment of the challenge? I just really don’t get it. The reason that I am as soundly grounded on the women’s issue is only because I was challenged and I needed to find the answers for myself. A challenge is a good thing because it forces you to listen and consider and fix the problems. When people cover their eyes and their ears because they don’t want to see and they don’t want to hear, they are willingly blind and deaf. And sadly these people will be responsible for discouraging women from following Christ in their God-given gifts.

One thing about complementarian scholars is that they don’t know what to do with me. I present arguments that they have never heard before and trying to answer would involve a whole lot of work on a completely new paradigm. I only wish they would try to answer because I would really like to see what argumentation they could come up with.

Cheryl, Good observation! What separates you from the complementarian dogmatists is that you are unafraid to go where the data leads. That is, you are willing to abandon your hypothesis if it is not supported by the data. Scripture and scripture alone is our body of data. Special pleading and appeals to ecclesiastical tradition ain’t gonna cut it. So what is the import of 1 Cor. with regards to the women passages? If no “law” can be found in the O.T. which silences women, then as you’ve shown in your DVD’s the only other plausible exegesis is that St. Paul was soundly refuting the judaizers which had crept into the Corinthian congregation. I’ve heard one complemetarian scholar tap dance around this too, the only thing that stumps me however is I can’t figure out if he’s tappin’ to “Swanee river”, “Oh Susannah”,
or “My old Kentucky home”…

Greg,

Your humor is refreshing to me! Thanks for your comments and your humorous take on this subject. I guess this gives me more hope that I can stick only to scripture, ’cause I never learned how to dance! (Father was a Pastor and dancing was a definite no-no)

For some reason, after not being on boards due to illness, i just tried to get on the boards and cannot open the forum.  My daily worthy scripture has even stopped.  Since I may not get back here again please answer via my e-mail. thanks     patricia1

Patricia,

I don’t know why you can’t get onto worthy boards.  I haven’t been on that board for a very long time.  I tried emailing you but the email address you gave me didn’t work.  You may have a typo in your email address.

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe