Cheryl Schatz

gengwall,

You misunderstand. I am not saying that a and b are the only possibilities, I am saying they are the only possibilities I will accept as reasonable.

Alright, then it appears that you have your own predefined limits of reasonable possibilities. What do you find unreasonable about my view or about other possibilities?

If you are saying that the good “desire” in Eve exists equally in men and women I am happy. Of course, it still means the bad “rule” in Adam exists equally in both as well.

This does not follow. Now I do not know the hearts of other people so I can’t tell you what is in a person’s heart, but I can evaluate the outward actions. In country after country both Islamic and otherwise, men rule their women by both physical and psychological force. They do not allow them to be free people to chose their own way. I have read through a portion of several tractates in the Talmud and the “role” that women have for the most part is in the like sections of ownership of animals. It is undeniable that men have unrighteously taken a lordship rulership primarily over women but they are also doing the same thing to minorities and other men who do not fight back. Men excel in this sin and it isn’t until Christianity takes hold that the sin is held back in a large way. There are still issues with “Christian” hierarchists who want to keep the best portion of the God’s gifts for themselves alone, but it is also undeniable that when people come to Christ one of the areas that men are becoming sanctified is in the area of lordship over other human beings.

As far as what women’s sins are common to the female gender perhaps that is better expressed by those who are outside of our own blind spots. But I can tell you that I have met few women whose sin is in taking lordship over others. I have met more than my share of men who lives show this tendency in a strong way.

It depends on your definition of abuse. Physically, this is certainly true. But physical abuse is only one kind.

Usually one who is physically abusive is also verbally abusive, but women too can be verbally abusive.

What I was talking about mostly is illegal “lordship” or “rule” over another human being. Men in every generation have struggled with this sin and because their physical size gives them the advantage, they are the clear “winners” in this area.

Absolutely untrue. Women are easily as controlling as men. Again, the difference is how each gender goes about accomplishing control. Just because men’s controlling actions are more visible due to the fact that they are outwardly physical does not mean they are more numerous.

In context I was talking about aggression and control. I realize that women have been known to manipulation rather than outright control.

Cheryl – “So while Genesis 3:16 is specifically about the first humans and their life outside the garden, in this verse there is a pattern that we can identify in a good portion of men and women.”

But you have managed to still see this “pattern” as biased in favor of wives. To you the pattern is that wives are generally virtuous and husbands are generally villianous. That is what I can not accept as valid.

Actually you are not able to refute what I say at all until you understand it. I have never said that women are “generally” virtuous or that husbands are “generally” villainous. I do not accept that bias rendering of my view as valid either.

So the question is still in the end, did Eve become a rebellious sinner after she left the garden of Eden? If she did, what proof does the Scriptures give for this rebellion? And if she did not become rebellious because she had the ability to remain without sin (unlike us), then for what reason would it be important that she remained without sin?

What say ye?