Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

I appreciate your attempt to defend the doctrine of original sin. I agree wholeheartedly here with you.

I take this as a kind word from you and it feels really good to have someone speaking out in agreement. Thank you, Mark for taking the time to let me know that you are agree with me.

You said “God never prophesied that Eve might rebel and eat from the tree of life after the fall because Eve still had the ability to not sin.”

I wonder how you hadle texts such as these with your theology…

Eph 2 “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. “
1 John 3:4 “sin is lawlessness”

In regard to the Ephesians 2 verse, this is talking about the children of Adam as “by nature” children of wrath. This is exactly what I have been talking about – the nature of the “old man”. But this cannot be used for Eve since she did not inherit Adam’s nature.

Regarding 1 John 3:4, sin is lawlessness but God Himself has defined two ways to come into this “lawlessness”. There is unintentional sin that can come through deception and there is defiant sin which is done with full knowledge of the truth of sin. The Bible lists Eve in the category as one who fell into sin through deception. She is never even once listed as one who was in rebellion while Adam is placed in that category.

As I read the Scriptures I see that so often God places opposites together to give a message of God’s way and man’s way. For example there is Sarah’s child and Hagar’s child. There is Jacob and Essau. Then there is Adam and Eve. One brought a curse on the earth and the other saw the deception that they had fallen into and accepted God’s promise to punish the one who had deceived her.

I’m not convinced that the bible ever gives the indication that any single person has ever had the capacity to ‘not sin’ after the fall, even Eve. What texts support the idea that Eve was able to not sin after her original sin. Please cite your texts

Actually I am not claiming that Eve did not have the capacity to ‘not sin’ after the fall. In fact she had the capacity to sin before the fall just as Adam did. What I am claiming is that she had the capacity to not sin before the fall and after the fall since she did not sin in rebellion. I am also claiming that while Adam had the capacity not to sin before the fall, he became a sinner with a sin nature after the fall and he became a slave to sin. Do you see the difference between what I am saying and what you thought I said?

Along that line I have said that for Eve to have a rebellious sin nature after the fall would require a witness of Scripture to this sin nature. I am not claiming that she could not sin, but I am claiming that for Eve to sin she would either have to be deceived into sin or she would have to sin in rebellion. There is no indication that she sinned in rebellion after the fall. And as far as being deceived again this seems unlikely. First of all she now had her eyes opened to the deceiver. Secondly the deceiver was condemned by his original deception of Eve. How was he going to deceive her again? I also see no evidence of this. I believe that a person created perfect without a sin nature can live a sinless life. Jesus did. Since Eve did not inherit Adam’s nature, why could she not continue to live a life without rebellion? Without a charge of rebellion against her, I have to consider her innocent until proven guilty. I would ask, what do you believe to be evidence of her rebellion?

Now this may simply be terminology issues. I agree that no-one is responsible for another’s sin, Adams or otherwise. But are you saying that children do not suffer the punishment for the sins of their parents (on earth i mean, not eternally). If so, how do you understand these texts…
2 Kings 23: 25-27 “Before him there was no king like him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his might, according to all the Law of Moses, nor did any like him arise after him.26 Still the LORD did not turn from the burning of his great wrath, by which his anger was kindled against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked him. 27 And the LORD said, “I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and I will cast off this city that I have chosen, Jerusalem, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.”

First off my discussion had been that the Father’s sin’s would not be placed on the account of the son so that we are not punished for our Father’s sin. Having said that I will deal with the passages you brought up.

In the passage of 2 Kings 23, God is showing that even though there is a good king in the land, and this good king forcefully destroys all the idols, the mediums, the spirtists and all of the other abdominations including the places where the Jews were burning their children to Baal, if there is no turning from evil from the people, even a good king cannot save Judah. There is a price to pay for the evil that they have done and the forced cleansing of the evil from a good king will not stop God’s anger against the people.

Here Judah is punished for the apostasy of an earlier king Manasseh. The effects of the sin of the king result in the destruction of Jerusalem, regardless of Josiah’s reforms.

It is the people who did the evil. Even though they had been encouraged by an evil king who set up much of the apostacy, it was the people who followed the evil with their whole heart. God wasn’t punishing repentant people. And God wasn’t punishing innocent people for the sins of their fathers. Let’s see that:

2 Kings 22:3 (NASB)
3 Now in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, the king sent Shaphan, the son of Azaliah the son of Meshullam the scribe, to the house of the LORD saying,

It was the 18th year of the reign of King Josiah when the scroll of the law was found. When King Josiah found out what was written in this law he was humble before the Lord and tore his clothes and wept before the Lord at the evil that had been exposed. It was then that he went out and destroyed all the idols and the places of evil that had been set up and where the people were doing what was evil in the eyes of the Lord. For this God promised that he would not see the punishment that God would bring to the people:

2 Kings 22:15–20 (NASB)
15 She said to them, “Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘Tell the man who sent you to me,
16 thus says the LORD, “Behold, I bring evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read.
17 “Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods that they might provoke Me to anger with all the work of their hands, therefore My wrath burns against this place, and it shall not be quenched.” ’
18 “But to the king of Judah who sent you to inquire of the LORD thus shall you say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD God of Israel, “Regarding the words which you have heard,
19 because your heart was tender and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants that they should become a desolation and a curse, and you have torn your clothes and wept before Me, I truly have heard you,” declares the LORD.
20 “Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes will not see all the evil which I will bring on this place.” ’ ” So they brought back word to the king.

So this good king would not live to see the punishment but the people who did the wrong doing would be punished. This was in the 18th year of Josiah and he reigned for 31 years so it was only 13 years later that Josiah died. Then evil reigned again and the people did not obey God. While the original evil was to be punished from the evil that a former king instituted, it was the people who followed and did the evil and they did not repent nor were their hearts softened to God as Josiah’s heart was during his reign of good. We do not find “innocent” and “repentant” people being punished for the sins of their fathers.

I will continue answering in the next comment.