Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

I would like to know how you think that ‘dead people’ can respond to God.

“Dead” is a metaphor. We know that “dead” people can bury the dead. They can eat, drink, be merry and they can respond to God. Cornelius was not born again when he responded to God’s call to hear Peter. He was also not born again when he was said to “fear God” and as a “devout” man he “prayed to God continually”.

Acts 10:1–2 (NASB)
1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

We were all people under wrath- every single person. BUT, verse 4 says it was GOD who made us alive, not us.

Of course. Who is teaching that we ourselves can accomplish the miracle of re-birth? Who is teaching that we make ourselves alive? It isn’t me.

What you have said is completely contradictory to Eph 2, and it strips the glory from God. Only God can make us alive, we have no ability by ourselves.

This seems to be a consistent problem with Calvinists. They misunderstand what non-Calvinists believe. To say that I believe that we have the ability to accomplish the miraculous work or being born again of our own effort is a serious misrepresentation that is common amongst Calvinists. My question – why do you do that?

It is also interesting that you think the ‘faith’ in Eph 2 is not a gift for every believer. Then I guess you would also like to be consistent and say that the salvation that is by grace through faith (which is what the verse is about) is not for every Christian.

Hold on here and back this truck up again. You are messing with the text again and making the gift in this passage as a noun instead of a action verb.

Ephesians 2:8–9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The “gift” is salvation which is completely a work of God. It is a verb that is tied to verse 9 “not as a result of works”. The Greek term for “works” is:

work
? that which displays itself in activity of any kind, deed, action
? in contrast to rest Hb 4:3, 4 (Gen 2:2), 10. In contrast to word: freq. used to describe people of exceptional merit, esp. benefactors
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (pg 390).

The verb of God’s action in verse 8 (salvation) is contrasted with the “works” of man in verse 9 so that the action of salvation is “not of” yourselves and the action of salvation is not a result of (or out from) our works so that you can boast of what? So that no one can boast of working for a right standing with God. It alone (the work of God is the verb “salvation”) comes by grace (the cause of the work) through faith (the vehicle through which the action is delivered). There is no doubt at all that by the wording that “salvation” is the accomplishment that is done for us and given as a gift. See Wuest’s fine work here:

(2:8–10) The definite article appears before the word “grace” here, pointing the reader back to the same statement in verse 5, and informing him that the writer is to elaborate upon this previously mentioned statement. The reader of this exposition is urged to go back to the exegesis of verse 5 and refresh his memory as to the total meaning of Paul’s statement, “by grace are ye saved.”
The words, “through faith” speak of the instrument or means whereby the sinner avails himself of this salvation which God offers him in pure grace. Expositors says: “Paul never says ‘through the faith,’ as if the faith were the ground or procuring cause of the salvation.” Alford says: “It (the salvation) has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith.” The word “that” is touto (?????), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (?????) could not refer to “faith.” It refers to the general idea of salvation in the immediate context. The translation reads, “and this not out from you as a source, of God (it is) the gift.” That is, salvation is a gift of God. It does not find its source in man. Furthermore, this salvation is not “out of a source of works.” This explains salvation by grace. It is not produced by man nor earned by him. It is a gift from God with no strings tied to it.
Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest’s word studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English reader (Eph 2:7–8).

Mark, you said:

You can’t have it both ways Cheryl. I’m afraid you have dug yourself into a hole with this one.

I find it amazing that Calvinists see Christian brothers and sisters in holes where no such holes exist. I am on solid grounds exegetically and the “gift” is not “faith” but the action verb “salvation” of which action only God can be source of.

Romans 3 is a quote from the psalms that is true. But to come to the conclusion that you have is misguided. We should ask the question- how is Paul using it here? What is the context? The verses before the quote give the answer.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,…

The translation of the verse that you quoted does not give the full flavor of the Greek. It is an us vs them where we are righteous but all of them (Jews and Greeks) and not righteous. All of them are unrighteous (but believers are called righteous in the Scriptures) all of them do not understand (but we have been given understanding from God) none of them seeks for God (but those who accept God’s Word will seek for Him), all of them are deceivers (but Christians are not deceivers even though we are called this – 2 Cor. 6:8), none of them does good, but those who trust in God will do good, they are filled with cursing and bitterness, and destruction is in their path (but those who know their God will do exploits and they are on the path or righteousness), and they have not known peace (but we know peace as we have peace with God). This is not talking about all those are unregenerate as many have come to fear God and to seek for Him just as He commanded. But the fool who says there is no God is just like this. He curses and has bitterness in his heart because he doesn’t believe that there is anyone to be held accountable to.

No, Paul is not making the quote from the Psalms to say something that is the complete opposite of the context of atheist fools who have no peace, goodness, or righteousness. Rather Paul is comparing both Jewish and Gentile fools who do not fear God, to us who do fear God and who seek Him and find Him.

It doesn’t seem like Paul is talking only about those who do not seek God does it Cheryl? No, Paul clearly states that all are like this, Jew and Gentile, even himself.

Yes, Paul is talking about exactly what the writer of the Psalms was talking about. He was talking about the fools who refuse to obey God and who even deny His existence. They neither seek Him nor seek His righteousness. And no, not all are like this. Abraham was not like this, Noah was not like all the others and neither was Job. Even God’s own testimony is that Job was not like so many others.

Job 1:8 (NASB)
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

You said:

I’m afraid Paul’s intention here, (noting that the first 3 chapters of Romans are dealing with everyone, Jew and Gentile) is that he is using this quote to support his view that every single person is like this.

If every single person is like this, then God lied because God said that Job is not like that. Are you really going to make God into a liar or will you admit that Paul isn’t using the quote from Psalms out of context and in a whole different meaning than the author of Psalms meant?

No one seeks God by themselves as dead in sin. I can’t understand why you would want to water our sinful nature down when the bible is so graphic about it.

What I don’t understand if why you want to make us incapable of seeking God when God shows very clearly that unregenerate people can and must seek Him. Why do you do this?

You can’t just dismiss the context of Romans 3 and Paul’s intention of using this quote to support his argument, as irrelevant and only rely on the Old Testament context. Paul is clearly using it here with another purpose.

So it seems to me that you are trying to make Paul dismiss the context of the Psalms quote and to illegally use it out of its context and to twist it to mean that Job, Abraham and Noah were all ungodly men who spoke evil things and did not seek God or have any good actions? That is impossible. Paul could not rip a Scripture out of its intended context and twist it to mean something else. God doesn’t do things like this and if I had to get my theology that way by twisting Scripture, then I would think twice as this is unlawful and not the way of the Master who uses Scripture in context.

I will get to your further comments later as I have time.